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Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition

 
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shaypete



Joined: 20 Apr 2019
Posts: 6
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

I recently bought a Kolb Ultrastar. The Aircraft A&E only has 26 hours of total flying time with no know accident history. However it has been stored in a basement for 20+years.
As a result the aluminum in the wings has oxidized pretty well and the steel rivets show a fair amount of corrosion. My plan is to recover the wings, but before I did that I wanted to ask your opinions as to the viability and structural integrity based on the included picture in the link below.

Additionally the aircraft came with a Kuyuna SN# 21673 2 stroke motor and any information/ service manuals would be greatly appreciated.

Below the link to the photos mentioned.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MdWtRZLrgfcztcKH9

Thank you in advanced


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ratcobob



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Here's the Cuyuna engine guy

http://zdenterprises.net/


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Rex Rodebush



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Impossible question to answer just based on pictures. I would remove the aluminum surface oxidation in several spots to determine the depth. I would suspect that the aluminum is probably OK. You might also drill out a number of rivets in random locations to see if the corrosion is through the rivet or just on the surface of the head and how deep. I would probably consider drilling them all out and replacing with stainless steel rivets. A lot of work but not a lot of money.

Again, these are idle thoughts and not recommendations. Worth what you paid for them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:19 am    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

I have heard that aluminum oxidizes and the oxidation forms a protective barrier that stops further oxidation? If this is so leave it alone. I was surprised to see the rust on the rivets. I think mine are stainless steel. Absolutely drill out a few rivets to see how bad they are. Wow that would be a major job drilling out and replacing thousands of rivets. Then you would have to disassemble the structure to get the remainder of the old rivets out. I have remainder of a few rivets that didn't seat properly still in my plane but you would have thousands of them.
Also that engine didn't have that great a reputation, can you still get parts?
Good luck.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:43 AM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

Impossible question to answer just based on pictures.  I would remove the aluminum surface oxidation in several spots to determine the depth.  I would suspect that the aluminum is probably OK. You might also drill out a number of rivets in random locations to see if the corrosion is through the rivet or just on the surface of the head and how deep.  I would probably consider drilling them all out and replacing with stainless steel rivets.  A lot of work but not a lot of money.

Again, these are idle thoughts and not recommendations.  Worth what you paid for them.




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Different kinds of aluminum have different corrosion properties.  Pure aluminum forms an oxide layer that protects that below it.  This is called alclad aluminum.  I do not believe the aluminum tubing in Kolbs is alclad.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 11:21 AM Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
I have heard that aluminum oxidizes and the oxidation forms a protective barrier that stops further oxidation? If this is so leave it alone. I was surprised to see the rust on the rivets. I think mine are stainless steel. Absolutely drill out a few rivets to see how bad they are. Wow that would be a major job drilling out and replacing thousands of rivets. Then you would have to disassemble the structure to get the remainder of the old rivets out. I have remainder of a few rivets that didn't seat properly still in my plane but you would have thousands of them.
Also that engine didn't have that great a reputation, can you still get parts?
Good luck.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:43 AM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

Impossible question to answer just based on pictures.  I would remove the aluminum surface oxidation in several spots to determine the depth.  I would suspect that the aluminum is probably OK. You might also drill out a number of rivets in random locations to see if the corrosion is through the rivet or just on the surface of the head and how deep.  I would probably consider drilling them all out and replacing with stainless steel rivets.  A lot of work but not a lot of money.

Again, these are idle thoughts and not recommendations.  Worth what you paid for them.




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

you will love steel rivets when trying to drill out stainless ones...Smile Herb

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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Monday, June 3, 2019 10:19 AM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Quote:
I have heard that aluminum oxidizes and the oxidation forms a protective barrier that stops further oxidation? If this is so leave it alone. I was surprised to see the rust on the rivets. I think mine are stainless steel. Absolutely drill out a few rivets to see how bad they are. Wow that would be a major job drilling out and replacing thousands of rivets. Then you would have to disassemble the structure to get the remainder of the old rivets out. I have remainder of a few rivets that didn't seat properly still in my plane but you would have thousands of them.

Also that engine didn't have that great a reputation, can you still get parts?

Good luck.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC


On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:43 AM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>



Impossible question to answer just based on pictures. I would remove the aluminum surface oxidation in several spots to determine the depth. I would suspect that the aluminum is probably OK. You might also drill out a number of rivets in random locations to see if the corrosion is through the rivet or just on the surface of the head and how deep. I would probably consider drilling them all out and replacing with stainless steel rivets. A lot of work but not a lot of money.



Again, these are idle thoughts and not recommendations. Worth what you paid for them.









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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:24 am    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

6061-T6....oxidizes and provides a protective coating.. 2024 is alclad...high copper...and without the fairly pure clad would certainly turn green to an extent...very thin cladding...some guys polish through the cladding on their ga planes...

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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Monday, June 3, 2019 10:32 AM, <james.vanlaak(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Quote:
Different kinds of aluminum have different corrosion properties. Pure aluminum forms an oxide layer that protects that below it. This is called alclad aluminum. I do not believe the aluminum tubing in Kolbs is alclad.

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 11:21 AM Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
I have heard that aluminum oxidizes and the oxidation forms a protective barrier that stops further oxidation? If this is so leave it alone. I was surprised to see the rust on the rivets. I think mine are stainless steel. Absolutely drill out a few rivets to see how bad they are. Wow that would be a major job drilling out and replacing thousands of rivets. Then you would have to disassemble the structure to get the remainder of the old rivets out. I have remainder of a few rivets that didn't seat properly still in my plane but you would have thousands of them.

Also that engine didn't have that great a reputation, can you still get parts?

Good luck.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC


On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:43 AM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>



Impossible question to answer just based on pictures. I would remove the aluminum surface oxidation in several spots to determine the depth. I would suspect that the aluminum is probably OK. You might also drill out a number of rivets in random locations to see if the corrosion is through the rivet or just on the surface of the head and how deep. I would probably consider drilling them all out and replacing with stainless steel rivets. A lot of work but not a lot of money.



Again, these are idle thoughts and not recommendations. Worth what you paid for them.









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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489456#489456













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shaypete



Joined: 20 Apr 2019
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Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Thank you top all that have responded. I drilled out a rivet as some of you had suggested and would appreciate your opinions . I added a picture of the rivet on the link posted in my initial thread.

Below a link to the Rivet picture
https://photos.app.goo.gl/N4vr3GxbQyiQScYaA


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Jerry-TS-MkII



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Looks like good advise from all of the other replies. I too would be concerned about using a Cuyuna engine. (Like.. do I make a cool go-cart out of it, or use it as a boat anchor??). I'm not a Cuyuna fan, but you probably didn't notice.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alodine. It is a non-electrically applied surface preparation, which treats the aluminum as if it has been anodized, only a thinner surface layer. And I believe your parts would need to be disassembled to do a proper job. One link adds some details. https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aluminum-corrosion-treatment.php Normally it is applied by dipping the parts, although I have done constant flow over some parts, and believe that was with success. I've used plastic gutters for straight tubing dip tanks.. and with a different job, used 4 PVC 4" drain tile tubes.. one for etch, one for Alodine, and two for water rinse. All in one frame holding them vertical, but each one removable. Worked great.

As others have mentioned.. your disassemble efforts could be significant, if you go that route. I agree, but also agree in the removal of any rivet heads that end up inside a structure. Complete disassembly does make that and Alodine application easier.. its just twice as much work as building one initially.

I don't know a lot about the early Kolbs.. but I'd have to wonder why SS rivets were not used initially.. unless someone was cutting corners.

Best Wishes, Jerry


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Peter,

Sometimes guys would dip the steel rivet in heavy oil or paint to protect it from corrosion before pulling. It looks like this was not the case with yours. I would strongly consider drilling out the rivets and replacing with SS. As one other person mentioned; drilling out steel rivets is much easier than drilling out SS rivets and if you keep a sharp bit it should go fairly fast. Also, unless your're built like Popeye invest in a pneumatic puller from Harbor Freight before installing the SS rivets.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Rex et al, Really, REALLY Bad ideas being tossed about any containment by the thought process. The rivets are steel, NOT stainless steel. They are used because Homer was trying to make a legal ultralight. He had plenty of strength in the thin wall aluminum tubing. He needed an attachment that was just strong enough to pull the rivet to the recommended dimension and strength without having it distort the aluminum structure. Stainless steel rivets are not some sort of cure all. Even my Firestar, with its .028 wall thickness tubing uses plain steel rivets for the same exact reason. Treat the corrosion per your favorite product and application method then make all attachments per the original builders manual. Barring that, replace with what you found.

Rick Girard
On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:21 PM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

Peter,

Sometimes guys would dip the steel rivet in heavy oil or paint to protect it from corrosion before pulling.  It looks like this was not the case with yours.  I would strongly consider drilling out the rivets and replacing with SS.  As one other person mentioned; drilling out steel rivets is much easier than drilling out SS rivets and if you keep a sharp bit it should go fairly fast.  Also, unless your're built like Popeye invest in a pneumatic puller from Harbor Freight before installing the SS rivets.




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

Rick,

I don't agree with your thinking at all. If steel rivets are badly corroded I don't think they should be used. If you replace them with steel rivets they are just going to corrode again. I don't see any problem with replacing them with SS rivets. Just because steel was used initially is no reason not to improve them if you can. I am not aware that the clamping force of steel rivets is any weaker than SS rivets. If you have that data please let me know.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:18 pm    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

I like alodine; it really is liquid magic for protecting aluminum. But
it really is a pain to use, since the aluminum must be squeaky clean
with absolutely no oils or foreign matter of any sort for the etch to
work, and then for the alodine to work. And its hazards shouldn't be
ignored.
https://www.chemical-supermarket.com/files/Henkel%20Alodine%20Conversion%20Coatings/1201%20Alodine,%20MSDS.pdf

You need a well ventilated area and good skin/eye protection, but what
isn't often mentioned is that exposure to sunlight quickly kills its
effectiveness.

If you do decide to use it, try to find the powder form (like instant
Tang; you mix it yourself) instead of the liquid. Much cheaper to ship,
and more importantly *much* cheaper to purchase, if you can find it in
small enough quantities. Most vendors want to sell you many pounds at a
time, when around a half pound of the powder would last through many
projects (if the mix is kept away from sunlight and in a light-proof
container when not in use).

If it were mine, I'd do what I did to the old Twinstar I basket case I
restored: Clean it up well with a good degreaser & scrubber (stainless
if you use a metal brush; Scotchbrite pads work fine too), then paint
with rattle-can self-etching primer. This:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MSR7220
is easy to find and very effective, but there are lots of other products
that work just as well. If you ask, they may tell you the next on-sale
dates, so you can save a few bucks a can.

Charlie

On 6/4/2019 11:28 AM, Jerry-TS-MkII wrote:
Quote:


Looks like good advise from all of the other replies. I too would be concerned about using a Cuyuna engine. (Like.. do I make a cool go-cart out of it, or use it as a boat anchor??). I'm not a Cuyuna fan, but you probably didn't notice.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alodine. It is a non-electrically applied surface preparation, which treats the aluminum as if it has been anodized, only a thinner surface layer. And I believe your parts would need to be disassembled to do a proper job. One link adds some details. https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aluminum-corrosion-treatment.php Normally it is applied by dipping the parts, although I have done constant flow over some parts, and believe that was with success. I've used plastic gutters for straight tubing dip tanks.. and with a different job, used 4 PVC 4" drain tile tubes.. one for etch, one for Alodine, and two for water rinse. All in one frame holding them vertical, but each one removable. Worked great.

As others have mentioned.. your disassemble efforts could be significant, if you go that route. I agree, but also agree in the removal of any rivet heads that end up inside a structure. Complete disassembly does make that and Alodine application easier.. its just twice as much work as building one initially.

I don't know a lot about the early Kolbs.. but I'd have to wonder why SS rivets were not used initially.. unless someone was cutting corners.

Best Wishes, Jerry



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Reply with quote

On 6/4/2019 3:33 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote:
Quote:


Rick,

I don't agree with your thinking at all. If steel rivets are badly corroded I don't think they should be used. If you replace them with steel rivets they are just going to corrode again. I don't see any problem with replacing them with SS rivets. Just because steel was used initially is no reason not to improve them if you can. I am not aware that the clamping force of steel rivets is any weaker than SS rivets. If you have that data please let me know.

You might want to reconsider. There are dozens ( likely hundreds) of

different types of pulled rivets. Various alloys of steel, various
alloys of stainless, various alloys of aluminum, various materials and
alloys used for the  mandrel, various *types* of pulled rivets in each
material type (some capture the mandrel, which plays a role in shear
strength, while some do not, for example), various head sizes, various
head shapes, then there are true structural pulled rivets ...

Those are just off the top of my head (pardon the pun). When you change
a structural fastener, you need to at least have confidence that the
replacement meets or exceeds the strength of the original, and doesn't
'violate' some other requirement that the a/c designer might not have
detailed for you. I think that if you do some research, you'll find that
many stainless pulled rivets are significantly weaker than the same
size/design in steel.

That plane was apparently stored in a really hostile environment. If the
replacement steel rivets were dipped in a bit of rust inhibiting primer
before being pulled, they'd likely outlast the rest of the plane if it's
kept in a sensible environment. The Twinstar I I restored is about 35
years old, and while there was some surface rust on the steel rivets,
they were in great shape, as was the aluminum, with only one exceptional
point on one wing. Likely had a mouse or rat's nest at that spot while
it was in storage.

I'm not recommending this to the OP; I can't see his project or choose
his risk tolerance. But if I had confidence that none of the rivets
looked any worse than the one pictured, I'd be tempted to clean it up,
paint with self-etch primer, and then spray everything down with a good
penetrating corrosion inhibitor. The certified world has some corrosion
inhibiting products that will seep into every crack, crevice, or opening
they touch. Not saying to use this one; just the 1st product name I
remembered. I think it was what we used on the old '46 Luscombe 8A that
taught me to fly.
http://www.corrosionx.com/corrosionx-aviation.html

Charlie

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