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IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

 
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fly4grins(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:50 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
That's an interesting evolution.  It used to be that the only bit of equipment on an experimental that was required to have a TSO was GPS for terminal ops.  I've spent a little time searching, and can't find any such reference anymore.  The AIM does indeed make a blanket statement with regard to having TSO'd GPS, which is curious as the AIM isn't regulatory.  (Of course, if one finds themselves in front of an administrative law judge due to nonconformity with the AIM one will likely be in a world of hurt, but that's a different topic...).  So, I wonder if all the folks with non-TSO'd GPS are grandfathered somehow, or just SOL...



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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1623
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

There is an advisory circular on GPS install. I forget the first two
digits, after the dash its 138a, which for most purposes can be
considered regulatory. While you could get away with most anything if
you declare an emergency, I wouldn't make a habit of that.
I don't believe the FAA has ever "approved" of using anything but a TSO
GPS. I believe you also have to have a TSO approved ELT unless you meet
the exceptions like single seat.

On 7/20/2019 6:48 AM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote:
Quote:
That's an interesting evolution.  It used to be that the only bit of
equipment on an experimental that was required to have a TSO was GPS
for terminal ops.  I've spent a little time searching, and can't
find any such reference anymore.  The AIM does indeed make a blanket
statement with regard to having TSO'd GPS, which is curious as the
AIM isn't regulatory.  (Of course, if one finds themselves in front
of an administrative law judge due to nonconformity with the AIM one
will likely be in a world of hurt, but that's a different
topic...).  So, I wonder if all the folks with non-TSO'd GPS are
grandfathered somehow, or just SOL...



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:54 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Hi Kelley- sorry for the delay, but the trip to OSH and related wx issues have had me offline for a bit.
*SNIP*I don't believe the FAA has ever "approved" of using anything but a TSO
GPS. I believe you also have to have a TSO approved ELT unless you meet 
the exceptions like single seat.  

Believe it or not, such is the case.  Right off the top of my head Blue Mountain comes to mind, among others.  All non-certified and all used IFR.  WRT the ELT, the salient quote in the reg is "meets the requirements of TSO-C91".  It doesn't say has a TSO sticker on it.  This is a fine legal point, similar to the part about experimentals having to address AD's, not comply with them.  Now, I certainly wouldn't recommend scratch building a radio and expecting a fed to take your word for it's suitability, but the legal principle still stands.  
All of this was brought to my attention at the time by the local mx fed that handled homebuilts.  


Unfortunately, there is as much confusion on these matters within the ranks of the feds as there is at the average fly in breakfast, but a quick call to EAA government relations will likely get you a pretty quick and concise answer.  Especially when it comes to recent developments, as the FAA has liaised with EAA on regulatory issues affecting homebuilts.
ics.com> wrote:
Quote:
*

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Today's Message Index:
----------------------

     1. 02:26 AM - Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions  (donjohnston)
     2. 06:50 AM - IFR-certified GPS Suggestions  (GLEN MATEJCEK)
     3. 09:25 AM - ELT antenna, BALUNS and stuff  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 01:31 PM - Re: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions  (Kelly McMullen)
     5. 06:12 PM - ADS-B - Garmin GDL-82 installation  (Argonaut36)
     6. 07:53 PM - Re: ADS-B - Garmin GDL-82 installation  (Hal Benjamin)



________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________


Time: 02:26:33 AM PST US
Subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions
From: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>



argoldman(at)aol.com wrote:
> Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure that you
have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating correctly. Plane not
flying yet-- almost done (15 years).
>    --


I used this to verify my ADS-B install.

https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490436#490436


________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________


Time: 06:50:17 AM PST US
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

>
> That's an interesting evolution.  It used to be that the only bit of
> equipment on an experimental that was required to have a TSO was GPS for
> terminal ops.  I've spent a little time searching, and can't find any such
> reference anymore.  The AIM does indeed make a blanket statement with
> regard to having TSO'd GPS, which is curious as the AIM isn't regulatory.
> (Of course, if one finds themselves in front of an administrative law judge
> due to nonconformity with the AIM one will likely be in a world of hurt,
> but that's a different topic...).  So, I wonder if all the folks with
> non-TSO'd GPS are grandfathered somehow, or just SOL...
>
>

________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________


Time: 09:25:14 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Subject: ELT antenna, BALUNS and stuff


Got the VNA back up and running. Did some
quick scans of a couple of BALUN configurations
and got some amazing (or should I say consternating)
results. At first blush it seems that conventional
wisdom may have failed us.

Need to repeat the experiments with more rigorous
attention to process and calibration . . .
watch this space.

Got the elements fabricated for a Jim Wier
ELT antenna. I'll be assembling those on
a test fixture with opportunity to explore
BALUN configurations . . .


   Bob . . .


________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________


Time: 01:31:39 PM PST US
Subject: Re: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>


There is an advisory circular on GPS install. I forget the first two
digits, after the dash its 138a, which for most purposes can be
considered regulatory.  While you could get away with most anything if
you declare an emergency, I wouldn't make a habit of that.
I don't believe the FAA has ever "approved" of using anything but a TSO
GPS. I believe you also have to have a TSO approved ELT unless you meet
the exceptions like single seat.

On 7/20/2019 6:48 AM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote:
>     That's an interesting evolution. It used to be that the only bit of
>     equipment on an experimental that was required to have a TSO was GPS
>     for terminal ops. I've spent a little time searching, and can't
>     find any such reference anymore. The AIM does indeed make a blanket
>     statement with regard to having TSO'd GPS, which is curious as the
>     AIM isn't regulatory. (Of course, if one finds themselves in front
>     of an administrative law judge due to nonconformity with the AIM one
>     will likely be in a world of hurt, but that's a different
>     topic...). So, I wonder if all the folks with non-TSO'd GPS are
>     grandfathered somehow, or just SOL...
>


________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________


Time: 06:12:08 PM PST US
Subject: ADS-B - Garmin GDL-82 installation
From: "Argonaut36" <fmlibrino(at)msn.com (fmlibrino(at)msn.com)>


In my airplane there are at least 3 options for grounding the GDL-82:
1.      Grounding to the avionics box that contains the electrical bus, the radio and
the transponder.  The box is attached with screws to lugs welded to the airplane
tubular frame.  Paint was removed where necessary to ensure good electrical
continuity to the frame.
2.      Grounding to a single screw on the firewall to which the radio, the transponder
and the encoder are already grounded.
3.      Grounding to a new screw on the firewall in the general area where the above
mentioned ground screw is.
What would be the recommended solution?  Right now (before installing the GDL-82)
there is some background noise in the radio, transmitting and receiving.  I
am concerned about the GDL-82 working properly and not making the radio worse.
Thanks


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490457#490457


________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________


Time: 07:53:47 PM PST US
From: Hal Benjamin <halbenjamin101(at)gmail.com (halbenjamin101(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: ADS-B - Garmin GDL-82 installation


I grounded mine to the common forest of tabs on the firewall. All tested well on
ground and in the NYC airspace. Good luck.

Hal Benjamin
RV4

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 20, 2019, at 9:10 PM, Argonaut36 <fmlibrino(at)msn.com (fmlibrino(at)msn.com)> wrote:
>
>
> In my airplane there are at least 3 options for grounding the GDL-82:
> 1.    Grounding to the avionics box that contains the electrical bus, the radio
and the transponder.  The box is attached with screws to lugs welded to the
airplane tubular frame.  Paint was removed where necessary to ensure good electrical
continuity to the frame.
> 2.    Grounding to a single screw on the firewall to which the radio, the transponder
and the encoder are already grounded.
> 3.    Grounding to a new screw on the firewall in the general area where the
above mentioned ground screw is.
> What would be the recommended solution?  Right now (before installing the GDL-82)
there is some background noise in the radio, transmitting and receiving.
I am concerned about the GDL-82 working properly and not making the radio worse.
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490457#490457
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:52 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Part dux-
I got a chance to talk to one of the avionics guys here about the current state of things. He did say that TSO’d GPS units are mandatory for IFR and ADS-B inputs.
And so it goes-


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

I think this is slightly misleading... The Blue Mountain device is an
experimental-only EFIS that happens to have a VFR GPS included in it
(just like Dynon, GRT, or the Garmin 3X-series) but it was never
intended to be an IFR Navigator on it's own. The FAA considers these
devices to be "VFR-only" GPS navigators, and the GPS capabilities are
supposed to be used for situational awareness only.

The FAA DOES allow EAB aircraft to fly in IMC with those experimental
EFIS systems, but they STILL require a certified IFR GPS to file "/G" in
the system, and to use the GPS as the primary navigation source in IMC.
EAA has lots of articles, Q&As, etc. on this topic. In addition, my
local DAR (also our EAA Tech Counselor) tells me they hammer away on
this point EVERY time they have DAR recurrent training...

To save some initial cash outlay, one might use one of the older
IFR-certified non-WAAS GPS systems (like the TSOed Garmin GNC-300XL)
which are FAA approved for enroute and non-precision approaches, SIDs,
and STARS). Or you could go whole hog and get one of the TSOed WAAS
navigators that allow all of the above, plus LPV, LNAV/VNAV, and LNAV
precision approaches. Or for that matter, you can use the experimental
GPS for situational awareness as you fly the VOR Airways with a TSOed
VHF Nav radio. But you cannot file "/G" and use the GPS approaches
without an FAA-certified GPS.

So, flying in IMC with just a Blue Mountain EFIS and it's included GPS
--- not allowed per the FAA's rules.

Jim Parker

------


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Since I started this thread, I figure that I ought to let you know that I purchased one of the new Garmin GPS 175 units. That and a pair of VAL Avionics COM 2000 radios and one NAV 2000 VOR/ILS/GS receiver comprise my IFR panel.

    -- Art Z.

Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Sent from BlueMail
On Jul 25, 2019, at 10:35 AM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
Quote:
Since I started this thread, I figure that I ought to let you know that I purchased one of the new Garmin GPS 175 units. That and a pair of VAL Avionics COM 2000 radios and one NAV 2000 VOR/ILS/GS receiver comprise my IFR panel.

-- Art Z.

Hi Art,
Please send us pireps on both the 175 and the VAL 2000. The val 429 has a great rep, but some reports on the 2000 aren't as positive. If you have good luck with it, I'll seriously consider the com/nav2000 pair for my plane. Much cheaper than even a used Garmin SL30.
Thanks,
Charlie



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:07 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

I am very pleased with the COM 2000. Haven't used my NAV 2000 yet due to a wiring glitch. I did need to turn up the mic gain in the setup menu but other than that, it works like a radio.

One small thing: turning the decimal from .975 to .000 increments the integer. E.g., turning from 127.975 one click gets you to 128.000, not 127.000. For a guy coming from mechanical dials, this was unexpected behavior.


On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 11:22 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:

Sent from BlueMail
On Jul 25, 2019, at 10:35 AM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
Quote:
Since I started this thread, I figure that I ought to let you know that I purchased one of the new Garmin GPS 175 units. That and a pair of VAL Avionics COM 2000 radios and one NAV 2000 VOR/ILS/GS receiver comprise my IFR panel.

    -- Art Z.

Hi Art,
Please send us pireps on both the 175 and the VAL 2000. The val 429 has a great rep, but some reports on the 2000 aren't as positive. If you have good luck with it, I'll seriously consider the com/nav2000 pair for my plane. Much cheaper than even a used Garmin SL30.
Thanks,
Charlie





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:47 am    Post subject: IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Art,

would be interested to hear your experience about the NAV 2000, will you
couple it with any EFIS?

Cheers Werner

On 25.07.2019 17:26, Art Zemon wrote:
Quote:
Since I started this thread, I figure that I ought to let you know that
I purchased one of the new Garmin GPS 175 units. That and a pair of VAL
Avionics COM 2000 radios and one NAV 2000 VOR/ILS/GS receiver comprise
my IFR panel.

    -- Art Z.

Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.


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