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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:46 pm Post subject: Desulfators and Lithium |
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I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the discussion:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltage_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity
I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly quantitative,
but at least attempted to study the subject.
On 10/22/2019 8:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | At 01:33 AM 10/21/2019, you wrote:
> *I too have read many articles that both applaud and disprove the
> desulfurization theory. What I more or less believe is the results
> that many tell about where they get 6 or 7 years from batteries well
> maintained with with BATTERY MINDER maintainers.*
Yup, been using the wall-wart BM and BT maintainers
for decades enjoying very good service lives on
a constellation of laboratory/test batteries.
But those were batteries that lived in a house
and were called upon perhaps a dozen hours/year
or to jump start a vehicle.
> *In my 50 years of dealing with batteries, I get about 3 or 4 years
> from flooded batteries and sealed
> batteries, but I have gotten 5 to 6 with the BATTERY MINDERS.*
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Kelly McMullen
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:51 pm Post subject: Desulfators and Lithium |
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Battery Minders (maintainers)
I too am a big fan of using a Maintainer on any type of lead acid battery.
Been using them for years also with very good results EXCEPT for one problem...
The Maintainer itself uses standard wall ac power, however, there is a feedback that uses dc associated with the battery. The problem comes when the main power stops, i.e. GFI controlled ac gets triggered off, main ac power is cut, etc.
If this condition is not caught early enough, by disconnecting the Maintainer, it will slowly discharge the battery until it is flat and quite possibly damaged.
Maintainers are rarely checked once clipped on the battery as they are dependable, except when primary ac power is dropped. I suggest to never power the maintainer via a GFI controlled ac power plug as they are usually on community circuits and subject to mysterious tripping. If no one is present to notice and reset the fault, one will not be happy with the results.....
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the discussion:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltage_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity
I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly quantitative,
but at least attempted to study the subject.
On 10/22/2019 8:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 01:33 AM 10/21/2019, you wrote:
>> *I too have read many articles that both applaud and disprove the
>> desulfurization theory. What I “more or less” believe is the results
>> that many tell about where they get 6 or 7 years from batteries well
>> maintained with with BATTERY MINDER maintainers.*
>
> Yup, been using the wall-wart BM and BT maintainers
> for decades enjoying very good service lives on
> a constellation of laboratory/test batteries.
> But those were batteries that lived in a house
> and were called upon perhaps a dozen hours/year
> or to jump start a vehicle.
>
>> *In my 50 years of dealing with batteries, I get about 3 or 4 years
>> from flooded batteries and sealed
>> batteries, but I have gotten 5 to 6 with the BATTERY MINDERS.*
>
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:42 am Post subject: Desulfators and Lithium |
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At 04:47 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
| Quote: | Battery Minders (maintainers)
I too am a big fan of using a Maintainer on any type of lead acid battery.
Been using them for years also with very good results EXCEPT for one problem...
The Maintainer itself uses standard wall ac power, however, there is a feedback that uses dc associated with the battery. The problem comes when the main power stops, i.e. GFI controlled ac gets triggered off, main ac power is cut, etc. |
Not all maintainers are the same. To be sure, the
maintainer's internal circuits need to constantly
measure terminal voltage of the battery under test.
This implies some, albeit small current into the
monitoring system.
My latest/greatest BatteryMINDer seems to feature
some form of sampler disconnect when powered down.
I just measured the device's power-down back flow
and found it to be too small to measure if not zero.
| Quote: | If this condition is not caught early enough, by disconnecting the Maintainer, it will slowly discharge the battery until it is flat and quite possibly damaged.
Maintainers are rarely checked once clipped on the battery as they are dependable, except when primary ac power is dropped. I suggest to never power the maintainer via a GFI controlled ac power plug as they are usually on community circuits and subject to mysterious tripping. If no one is present to notice and reset the fault, one will not be happy with the results..... |
Better yet . . . MEASURE the backflow current into
your favorite battery maintenance device. I would
hate to expend a lot of worry-capital building
a defense for a non-existent risk. I've got about
a half dozen maintainers in the mess-making-shop
some with histories that go back 20+ years.
If I can get out there yet this weekend, I'll
do back-flow measurements on the lots and report
findings here.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:29 pm Post subject: Desulfators and Lithium |
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At 03:44 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
Unfortunately, it's VERY un-quantitative . . . and
short on illumination.
"Pulse" charging techniques have been proposed
and sorta demonstrated for decades. I can recall
conversations I had with local fellow ham-operators
back in the 60's.
This particular article takes a little different approach.
Instead of 'hammering' the pesky lead-sulfate crystals
with a 'high' energy pulse, this article appears to
claim that a simple 50% duty cycle charging protocol
that 'respects the manufacturer's specifications'.
The repetition rate can be 'user programmed' at
any frequency from 2 to 6 Mhz to ostensibly
coordinated with a 'resonance frequency' . . .
thereafter undefined. No mention of the
experiment's test frequency or how an
optimized test frequency can be determined.
The paper uses the word 'capacity' 29 times
yet never describes how capacity improvements
are quantified. The paper speaks to open circuit
voltage measurements which are loosely correlated
to state of charge but say nothing about improvements
in deliverable Joules or Watt-Seconds by a rejuvenated
battery.
The by-lines for these authors don't indicate
their pedigree . . . so are they students? If
students, then their teachers should be duct-taped
to a chalk-board and flogged with their own
slide-rule.
My kiddo's 7th grade science fair project
and presentation demonstrated more science than
this paper. Nothing to see here . . .
Bob . . .
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