Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Alternator bench test

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
David Lamphere



Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Culpeper, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:11 am    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

Twice I have sent a PlanePower (internal volt regulator) back to Hartzell as it is not charging.
Both times they have told me it checks out OK on the bench.

I have checked wiring 3 times without finding a culprit. The last thing I did before sending it to them was set it up on the bench. It did not work (would not charge). Let me describe what I set up - perhaps I am missing something. I tried to make the setup as simple as possible.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



scan20210113.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  scan20210113.pdf
 Filesize:  100.49 KB
 Downloaded:  7 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
edwclg



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

I recently had a problem and replaced the internal VR and in doing so
did not tighten the B lead to alt enough.
No Charge. Tightened and now works perfectly. May have been the
original problem as field cb never tripped.
Ed

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 11:20 AM David and Elaine Lamphere
<dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote:
Quote:

Twice I have sent a PlanePower (internal volt regulator) back to Hartzell as it is not charging.
Both times they have told me it checks out OK on the bench.

I have checked wiring 3 times without finding a culprit. The last thing I did before sending it to them was set it up on the bench. It did not work (would not charge). Let me describe what I set up - perhaps I am missing something. I tried to make the setup as simple as possible.



- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
David Lamphere



Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Culpeper, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

That’s interesting - what would be your opinion of my cruse bench setup?
Would it work?

On Jan 13, 2021, at 12:03 PM, edward Clegg <edwclg(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I recently had a problem and replaced the internal VR and in doing so
did not tighten the B lead to alt enough.
No Charge. Tightened and now works perfectly. May have been the
original problem as field cb never tripped.
Ed

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 11:20 AM David and Elaine Lamphere
<dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote:
Quote:

Twice I have sent a PlanePower (internal volt regulator) back to Hartzell as it is not charging.
Both times they have told me it checks out OK on the bench.

I have checked wiring 3 times without finding a culprit. The last thing I did before sending it to them was set it up on the bench. It did not work (would not charge). Let me describe what I set up - perhaps I am missing something. I tried to make the setup as simple as possible.





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1645
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

Have you measured the field current? If so, what is it?

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Joe Gores
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

David,
During Covid hibernation I had some time to bench-test a couple of alternators and I found that some were sensitive to low RPM. In other words, some alternators need to spin pretty fast to work properly.
I used a test fixture (picture attached) and used a 3/4 horsepower motor from my shop sander to drive it. That motor spins at 3450 RPM and I had a pulley configuration of about 1.2:1. So I'm guestimating that the alternator was turning somewhere around 2800 RPM.
Some alternator/regulator combinations that I tested would not self-start at that low RPM. If I momentarily jumped the field, it would generate electricity and regulate normally. When I changed the pulley arrangement to get higher alternator RPM, it would self-start.
Some regulators have a self-starting feature where they won't turn-on until they reach some minimum RPM. It is designed to keep power off the field when the engine is not turning. I have no idea about how the Plane Power devices are supposed to work. (I was testing automotive alternators & regulators)
What I learned:
1. Some alternator/regulator combinations won't work properly until they hit some minimum RPM
2. Manually jumping the field to get it started can be valuable 'cuz it showed the regulator could regulate (was not DOA)
However, Jumping the field may be more challenging on an internal regulator unit???


My test fixture is UGLY. But it worked well and was fast & cheap to build. The 3/4 HP motor mounts to the right on the 2 studs that are sticking up. I would have preferred to use a more powerful motor, at least 1 HP, but none was available, so I went with what I had. The motor would bog-down with about 25 Amps of load on the alternator.


-Jeff

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 09:56:20 AM PST, David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote:




--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net (dalamphere(at)comcast.net)>

That’s interesting - what would be your opinion of my cruse bench setup?

Would it work?

On Jan 13, 2021, at 12:03 PM, edward Clegg <edwclg(at)gmail.com (edwclg(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: edward Clegg <edwclg(at)gmail.com (edwclg(at)gmail.com)>

I recently had a problem and replaced the internal VR and in doing so

did not tighten the B lead to alt enough.

No Charge. Tightened and now works perfectly. May have been the

original problem as field cb never tripped.

Ed

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 11:20 AM David and Elaine Lamphere

<dalamphere(at)comcast.net (dalamphere(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

Quote:


Quote:
Twice I have sent a PlanePower (internal volt regulator) back to Hartzell as it is not charging.

Quote:
Both times they have told me it checks out OK on the bench.

Quote:


Quote:
I have checked wiring 3 times without finding a culprit. The last thing I did before sending it to them was set it up on the bench. It did not work (would not charge). Let me describe what I set up - perhaps I am missing something. I tried to make the setup as simple as possible.

Quote:


Quote:


Quote:




<================

AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aer - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://wiki.matronics.com[/url]

http://www.matronics.c=


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



IMG_0037.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  1.55 MB
 Viewed:  53 Time(s)

IMG_0037.jpg


Back to top
David Lamphere



Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Culpeper, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:02 am    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

Joe,

I verified that there is a slight magnetic field generated.
when I get the unit back from Hartzell, I’ll see about measuring that.
They claim it passes production functional test. Very frustrating.
4 connectons plus chassis ground - and one connection is just for a warning light.
Hard hard can it be? (famous last words)

Thanks,

Dave

On Jan 13, 2021, at 1:24 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Have you measured the field current? If so, what is it?

--------
Joe Gores


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500199#500199


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
David Lamphere



Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Culpeper, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

Sounds familiar - I used a belt sander motor also…The question posed is schematically should it work?
Here’s what I had:
On Jan [img]cid:3FA59B26-14C7-4FF1-838E-3835219EB84E(at)hsd1.va.comcast.net.[/img]

[img]cid:351DDFDD-EB89-44D5-B8D2-A225D115818E(at)hsd1.va.comcast.net.[/img]

13, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:

David,

During Covid hibernation I had some time to bench-test a couple of alternators and I found that some were sensitive to low RPM. In other words, some alternators need to spin pretty fast to work properly.

I used a test fixture (picture attached) and used a 3/4 horsepower motor from my shop sander to drive it. That motor spins at 3450 RPM and I had a pulley configuration of about 1.2:1. So I'm guestimating that the alternator was turning somewhere around 2800 RPM.

Some alternator/regulator combinations that I tested would not self-start at that low RPM. If I momentarily jumped the field, it would generate electricity and regulate normally. When I changed the pulley arrangement to get higher alternator RPM, it would self-start.

Some regulators have a self-starting feature where they won't turn-on until they reach some minimum RPM. It is designed to keep power off the field when the engine is not turning. I have no idea about how the Plane Power devices are supposed to work. (I was testing automotive alternators & regulators)

What I learned:

1. Some alternator/regulator combinations won't work properly until they hit some minimum RPM
2. Manually jumping the field to get it started can be valuable 'cuz it showed the regulator could regulate (was not DOA)

However, Jumping the field may be more challenging on an internal regulator unit???
My test fixture is UGLY. But it worked well and was fast & cheap to build. The 3/4 HP motor mounts to the right on the 2 studs that are sticking up. I would have preferred to use a more powerful motor, at least 1 HP, but none was available, so I went with what I had. The motor would bog-down with about 25 Amps of load on the alternator.

-Jeff


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



alt-setup1.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  296.99 KB
 Viewed:  38 Time(s)

alt-setup1.jpeg



alt-setup2.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  333.33 KB
 Viewed:  38 Time(s)

alt-setup2.jpeg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

David,
I don't know the Plane Power device, so I can't determine if it is wired correctly.
But, based on your pulley configuration, the alternator is turning slower than the motor. So if the Plane Power setup has a minimum RPM, it is very likely turning too slowly in your test fixture.
Wish I could be or more help. There are lots of Listers who know more about the Plane Power equipment.
-Jeff



On Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:15:47 PM PST, David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote:




Sounds familiar - I used a belt sander motor also…The question posed is schematically should it work?
Here’s what I had:
On Jan [img]cid:BiXRcr3wXfVtw1mEZ5Ht[/img]

[img]cid:ihixkEZvwZ3c5hL9z9lr[/img]

13, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:

David,

During Covid hibernation I had some time to bench-test a couple of alternators and I found that some were sensitive to low RPM. In other words, some alternators need to spin pretty fast to work properly.

I used a test fixture (picture attached) and used a 3/4 horsepower motor from my shop sander to drive it. That motor spins at 3450 RPM and I had a pulley configuration of about 1.2:1. So I'm guestimating that the alternator was turning somewhere around 2800 RPM.

Some alternator/regulator combinations that I tested would not self-start at that low RPM. If I momentarily jumped the field, it would generate electricity and regulate normally. When I changed the pulley arrangement to get higher alternator RPM, it would self-start.

Some regulators have a self-starting feature where they won't turn-on until they reach some minimum RPM. It is designed to keep power off the field when the engine is not turning. I have no idea about how the Plane Power devices are supposed to work. (I was testing automotive alternators & regulators)

What I learned:

1. Some alternator/regulator combinations won't work properly until they hit some minimum RPM
2. Manually jumping the field to get it started can be valuable 'cuz it showed the regulator could regulate (was not DOA)

However, Jumping the field may be more challenging on an internal regulator unit???
My test fixture is UGLY. But it worked well and was fast & cheap to build. The 3/4 HP motor mounts to the right on the 2 studs that are sticking up. I would have preferred to use a more powerful motor, at least 1 HP, but none was available, so I went with what I had. The motor would bog-down with about 25 Amps of load on the alternator.

-Jeff


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



alt-setup2.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  333.33 KB
 Viewed:  38 Time(s)

alt-setup2.jpeg



alt-setup1.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  296.99 KB
 Viewed:  38 Time(s)

alt-setup1.jpeg


Back to top
Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 74
Location: MS

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:03 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

David,
What do the PP instructions for that particular alt look like?
At least one PP doc says that one of the F terminals should be grounded, unless there's a particular type of regulator in use.
Part No. 10-1001
Installation Instructions
1. Disconnect aircraft battery,
2. tnstall alternator per included drawing.
3. Refer to appropriate engine and airframe service manuals for belt tension and bolt
torques.
4. Install battery wire with MS2517l-2S terminal nipple on 6mm output terminal
and torque to 50 in. lb.
5. lnstall ground wire to any of the three 5mm studs on rear of alternator and torque
to 35 in. lb.
6. Install field wire with MS2517l-1S terminal nipple to Fl terminal on rear of
alternator and torque to 20 in. lb.
7. NOTE: F2 terminal to remain grounded with ground strap UNLESS aircraft
voltage regulator is a t1pe "A" regulator using a2-wire field circuit, in this case
rezulator to Fl and F2 terminals. torque to 20 in. lb.
8. If aircraft is equipped with an "alternator out light" circuit, connect that wire to
the AUX terminal and torque to 20 in. lbs. Other wise leave AUX terminal open.
9. Reconnect aircraft battery.
10. Start aircraft and check alternator output for proper operation.




Charlie
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 2:09 PM David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net (dalamphere(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

Quote:
Sounds familiar - I used a belt sander motor also…The question posed is schematically should it work?
Here’s what I had:
On Jan [img]cid:176fd82fab62b008e9e1[/img] 
[img]cid:176fd82fab62cb5673d2[/img]
13, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
David,
During Covid hibernation I had some time to bench-test a couple of alternators and I found that some were sensitive to low RPM.  In other words, some alternators need to spin pretty fast to work properly.
I used a test fixture (picture attached) and used a 3/4 horsepower motor from my shop sander to drive it.  That motor spins at 3450 RPM and I had a pulley configuration of about 1.2:1.  So I'm guestimating that the alternator was turning somewhere around 2800 RPM.
Some alternator/regulator combinations that I tested would not self-start at that low RPM.  If I momentarily jumped the field, it would generate electricity and regulate normally.  When I changed the pulley arrangement to get higher alternator RPM, it would self-start.
Some regulators have a self-starting feature where they won't turn-on until they reach some minimum RPM.  It is designed to keep power off the field when the engine is not turning.  I have no idea about how the Plane Power devices are supposed to work.  (I was testing automotive alternators & regulators)
What I learned:
1. Some alternator/regulator combinations won't work properly until they hit some minimum RPM
2. Manually jumping the field to get it started can be valuable 'cuz it showed the regulator could regulate (was not DOA)
However, Jumping the field may be more challenging on an internal regulator unit???


My test fixture is UGLY. But it worked well and was fast & cheap to build.  The 3/4 HP motor mounts to the right on the 2 studs that are sticking up.  I would have preferred to use a more powerful motor, at least 1 HP, but none was available, so I went with what I had.  The motor would bog-down with about 25 Amps of load on the alternator.


-Jeff





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



alt-setup1.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  296.99 KB
 Viewed:  38 Time(s)

alt-setup1.jpeg



alt-setup2.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  333.33 KB
 Viewed:  38 Time(s)

alt-setup2.jpeg



_________________
Charlie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

At 10:05 AM 1/13/2021, you wrote:
Quote:
Twice I have sent a PlanePower (internal volt regulator) back to Hartzell as it is not charging.
Both times they have told me it checks out OK on the bench.

I have checked wiring 3 times without finding a culprit. The last thing I did before sending it to them was set it up on the bench. It did not work (would not charge). Let me describe what I set up - perhaps I am missing something. I tried to make the setup as simple as possible.

What is the rpm of your driving motor. What are your
pulley diameters. There are two, critical rpm numbers
for an alternator:

(1) minimum speed for full ouput

(2) minimum speed for regulation.

An alternator will deliver no energy to your
battery until it's driven at minimum speed
for regulation.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
David Lamphere



Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Culpeper, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

This is an AL12-E160-B (PP 99-9900) - internal regulator alternatorInstructions:

[img]cid:213C0463-94F3-4AA4-B9E7-232002823D35(at)hsd1.va.comcast.net.[/img]

field cable wired correctly pins 3 + 2 jumped, red wire (top or most left is #3 view from rear)
pin 1 white wire for alternator out lamp

So what else do I need?

David


On Jan 13, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:David,
What do the PP instructions for that particular alt look like?
At least one PP doc says that one of the F terminals should be grounded, unless there's a particular type of regulator in use.
Part No. 10-1001Installation Instructions1. Disconnect aircraft battery,2. tnstall alternator per included drawing.3. Refer to appropriate engine and airframe service manuals for belt tension and bolttorques.4. Install battery wire with MS2517l-2S terminal nipple on 6mm output terminaland torque to 50 in. lb.5. lnstall ground wire to any of the three 5mm studs on rear of alternator and torqueto 35 in. lb.6. Install field wire with MS2517l-1S terminal nipple to Fl terminal on rear ofalternator and torque to 20 in. lb.7. NOTE: F2 terminal to remain grounded with ground strap UNLESS aircraftvoltage regulator is a t1pe "A" regulator using a2-wire field circuit, in this caserezulator to Fl and F2 terminals. torque to 20 in. lb.8. If aircraft is equipped with an "alternator out light" circuit, connect that wire tothe AUX terminal and torque to 20 in. lbs. Other wise leave AUX terminal open.9. Reconnect aircraft battery.10. Start aircraft and check alternator output for proper operation.

Charlie

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 2:09 PM David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net (dalamphere(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:
Sounds familiar - I used a belt sander motor also…The question posed is schematically should it work?
Here’s what I had:
On Jan <alt-setup1.jpeg>

<alt-setup2.jpeg>

13, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:

David,

During Covid hibernation I had some time to bench-test a couple of alternators and I found that some were sensitive to low RPM. In other words, some alternators need to spin pretty fast to work properly.

I used a test fixture (picture attached) and used a 3/4 horsepower motor from my shop sander to drive it. That motor spins at 3450 RPM and I had a pulley configuration of about 1.2:1. So I'm guestimating that the alternator was turning somewhere around 2800 RPM.

Some alternator/regulator combinations that I tested would not self-start at that low RPM. If I momentarily jumped the field, it would generate electricity and regulate normally. When I changed the pulley arrangement to get higher alternator RPM, it would self-start.

Some regulators have a self-starting feature where they won't turn-on until they reach some minimum RPM. It is designed to keep power off the field when the engine is not turning. I have no idea about how the Plane Power devices are supposed to work. (I was testing automotive alternators & regulators)

What I learned:

1. Some alternator/regulator combinations won't work properly until they hit some minimum RPM
2. Manually jumping the field to get it started can be valuable 'cuz it showed the regulator could regulate (was not DOA)

However, Jumping the field may be more challenging on an internal regulator unit???
My test fixture is UGLY. But it worked well and was fast & cheap to build. The 3/4 HP motor mounts to the right on the 2 studs that are sticking up. I would have preferred to use a more powerful motor, at least 1 HP, but none was available, so I went with what I had. The motor would bog-down with about 25 Amps of load on the alternator.

-Jeff




- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



page2image2664.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  70.21 KB
 Viewed:  37 Time(s)

page2image2664.png


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 74
Location: MS

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

Then your setup looks electrically correct, but as Bob N and others have pointed out, you must turn the alt fast enough to actually generate anything. Suggest asking PP about minimum RPM.
You do need to be sure that the battery is near fully charged for a test like this; you need enough energy to power the field coil in the alternator. You also need it charged because a 70A alternator needs close to 2 HP driving it (and spinning it fast enough) to make full output. If the battery is near full charge when you start the test, it will load the alternator less, increasing the chance that the alternator can supply output.
When you spin up your test rig, have you  measured voltage at both the F terminals, and at the B lead terminal, referenced to the battery negative? You should see at least battery voltage at the B terminal, and, until the alternator comes online, battery voltage at the F terminals. The F terminal voltage will vary to maintain the B terminal voltage at set point (should be at least ~14V at B terminal). The initial two measurements will tell you whether your test rig is wired correctly.
Charlie
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 4:06 PM David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net (dalamphere(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

Quote:
This is an AL12-E160-B  (PP 99-9900) - internal regulator alternatorInstructions:
[img]cid:176fdd03cc81fc11f51[/img]
field cable wired correctly pins 3 + 2 jumped, red wire (top or most left is #3 view from rear)
pin 1 white wire for alternator out lamp
So what else do I need?
David
 
On Jan 13, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

David,
What do the PP instructions for that particular alt look like?
At least one PP doc says that one of the F terminals should be grounded, unless there's a particular type of regulator in use.
Part No. 10-1001
Installation Instructions
1. Disconnect aircraft battery,
2. tnstall alternator per included drawing.
3. Refer to appropriate engine and airframe service manuals for belt tension and bolt
torques.
4. Install battery wire with MS2517l-2S terminal nipple on 6mm output terminal
and torque to 50 in. lb.
5. lnstall ground wire to any of the three 5mm studs on rear of alternator and torque
to 35 in. lb.
6. Install field wire with MS2517l-1S terminal nipple to Fl terminal on rear of
alternator and torque to 20 in. lb.
7. NOTE: F2 terminal to remain grounded with ground strap UNLESS aircraft
voltage regulator is a t1pe "A" regulator using a2-wire field circuit, in this case
rezulator to Fl and F2 terminals. torque to 20 in. lb.
8. If aircraft is equipped with an "alternator out light" circuit, connect that wire to
the AUX terminal and torque to 20 in. lbs. Other wise leave AUX terminal open.
9. Reconnect aircraft battery.
10. Start aircraft and check alternator output for proper operation.




Charlie
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 2:09 PM David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net (dalamphere(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

Quote:
Sounds familiar - I used a belt sander motor also…The question posed is schematically should it work?
Here’s what I had:
On Jan <alt-setup1.jpeg> 
<alt-setup2.jpeg>
13, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
David,
During Covid hibernation I had some time to bench-test a couple of alternators and I found that some were sensitive to low RPM.  In other words, some alternators need to spin pretty fast to work properly.
I used a test fixture (picture attached) and used a 3/4 horsepower motor from my shop sander to drive it.  That motor spins at 3450 RPM and I had a pulley configuration of about 1.2:1.  So I'm guestimating that the alternator was turning somewhere around 2800 RPM.
Some alternator/regulator combinations that I tested would not self-start at that low RPM.  If I momentarily jumped the field, it would generate electricity and regulate normally.  When I changed the pulley arrangement to get higher alternator RPM, it would self-start.
Some regulators have a self-starting feature where they won't turn-on until they reach some minimum RPM.  It is designed to keep power off the field when the engine is not turning.  I have no idea about how the Plane Power devices are supposed to work.  (I was testing automotive alternators & regulators)
What I learned:
1. Some alternator/regulator combinations won't work properly until they hit some minimum RPM
2. Manually jumping the field to get it started can be valuable 'cuz it showed the regulator could regulate (was not DOA)
However, Jumping the field may be more challenging on an internal regulator unit???


My test fixture is UGLY. But it worked well and was fast & cheap to build.  The 3/4 HP motor mounts to the right on the 2 studs that are sticking up.  I would have preferred to use a more powerful motor, at least 1 HP, but none was available, so I went with what I had.  The motor would bog-down with about 25 Amps of load on the alternator.


-Jeff









- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



page2image2664.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  70.21 KB
 Viewed:  37 Time(s)

page2image2664.png



_________________
Charlie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
David Lamphere



Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 17
Location: Culpeper, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject: Alternator bench test Reply with quote

Thank you for your input. I agree with what you say.
The main reason for trying the bench setup was to eliminate airplane installation variables - it was not charging installed in the plane.
The 2-1/2” pulley on the electric motor turns 3450 rpm
The alternator pulley (looking at the picture - haven’t got it back yet) is approximately 3”
perhaps someone has a similar unit and can correct me.
This would amount to the alternator turning 2874 rpm

Mathematically if the engine’s drive pulley is 9” diameter then the engine would be turning 958 rpm when the alternator was turning 2874 rpm - I would expect SOME charging would be going on. I do have a larger diameter pulley in my scrap bin and can rerun the experiment is necessary (when the alternator gets back here). I would guess a 4-1/2 to 5” pulley would work if you wanted to simulate the engine running at 1800 rpm. According to the test graph they supplied (I have attached that to the end of this email) at 2874 rpm it should be outputting > 40 a.

The main reason for the crude setup was to see if it would charge at all, what Voltage would be present when it ran (thinking the regulator might not be working). During the trial run, all I saw was the battery voltage slowly decreasing.

Which brings me to the reason for posting the question - was what I had set up electrically correct? or is there some other load required? Just trying to understand why their bench testing passes and mine doesn’t.

I asked Hartzell/PlanePower to advise on what I would need to setup a basic bench test schematic - they declined to offer that info today. They will only help on troubleshooting with it installed in the airplane. I have gone through their troubleshooting procedures and have found nothing so far - ending with flow chart box saying contact technical support.

That’s why I’d like to be sure it is working in the shop before putting it in the plane.

David


On Jan 13, 2021, at 4:48 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
At 10:05 AM 1/13/2021, you wrote:
Quote:
Twice I have sent a PlanePower (internal volt regulator) back to Hartzell as it is not charging. Both times they have told me it checks out OK on the bench. I have checked wiring 3 times without finding a culprit. The last thing I did before sending it to them was set it up on the bench. It did not work (would not charge). Let me describe what I set up - perhaps I am missing something. I tried to make the setup as simple as possible.
What is the rpm of your driving motor. What are your pulley diameters. There are two, critical rpm numbers for an alternator: (1) minimum speed for full ouput (2) minimum speed for regulation. An alternator will deliver no energy to your battery until it's driven at minimum speed for regulation.
Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?"


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



test-graph.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  test-graph.pdf
 Filesize:  21.09 KB
 Downloaded:  2 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group