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installation of Stall Strips

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tonyvaccarella

Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 68
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:14 am Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Hi All,



Iv almost completed by Europa XS, with a classic wing. I was reading an Operations Manual that said most Europa's are fit with a Stall Strip. Mine does not but it has the Europa stall warning.



Do I need a stall strip? - if so, I can't seem to find information about them in the build manuals. So I thought I'd reach out to the hive mind of this forum to set me straight.



Thanks for your help.



Tony

_________________
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:47 am Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Iâ€™m in the same situation where I have a Classic wing with stall warner but no stall strips. Andy Draper did my most recent annual permit inspection and suggested it was a good idea to fit the stall strips in addition to the stall warner, especially to correct any tendency for a wing to drop (which mine does if you really push it hard in full flap stall situation). There is info on making and fitting the stall strips in the POH itself and a template for fitting them is in there too. 



Andy suggested using plastic angle sections, about 10mm x 10mm, rather than carving the wood ones mentioned in the POH, and fixing them on with bath silicone once you have them in the correct position. 



Good luck!



David 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 10 Oct 2022, at 15:20, tonyvaccarella <tony(at)weimagine.com.au> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 Hi All,

 

 Iv almost completed by Europa XS, with a classic wing. I was reading an Operations Manual that said most Europa's are fit with a Stall Strip. Mine does not but it has the Europa stall warning.

 

 Do I need a stall strip? - if so, I can't seem to find information about them in the build manuals. So I thought I'd reach out to the hive mind of this forum to set me straight.

 

 Thanks for your help.

 

 Tony

 

 --------

 Tony Vaccarella

 Mascot NSW 2020

 Sydney Australia

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508046#508046

SteveIvell(at)pestproof.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:52 am Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Hi Tony



You may need a stall strip but it's dependant on the test flight. Our doesn't have one.



As a result of the test flight the test pilot may tape on a pencil or similar to act as a stall strip, which can then be replaced with a proper stall strip once you are happy with the stall characteristics. It's all a bit of trial and  error..........a bit like building a Europa!! Lol



Kind Regards



Steve Ivell

G-STES

E-mail: steveivell(at)pestproof.co.uk

--

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 182

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:44 am Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Fitting the stall strips is documented in the POH.



In the UK I believe that you need a functional means of indicating approach of the stall which the stall strips do if correctly placed and without the need of any power supply.



If your powered stall warning fails due to loss of power supply the aircraft then is grounded until resolved is my understanding in the UK.



Alan



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 10 Oct 2022, at 15:19, tonyvaccarella <tony(at)weimagine.com.au> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 Hi All,

 

 Iv almost completed by Europa XS, with a classic wing. I was reading an Operations Manual that said most Europa's are fit with a Stall Strip. Mine does not but it has the Europa stall warning.

 

 Do I need a stall strip? - if so, I can't seem to find information about them in the build manuals. So I thought I'd reach out to the hive mind of this forum to set me straight.

 

 Thanks for your help.

 

 Tony

 

 --------

 Tony Vaccarella

 Mascot NSW 2020

 Sydney Australia

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508046#508046

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:57 pm Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Hi Tony,

I've attached a paper I did on my Classic N12AY but never published it  "Stall Warning types for the Europa".  Because the wings on a Classic can be a bit out of shape, some aircraft have a bit of a wing drop.  Some don't.  Even the XS wings may exhibit a wing drop due to rig and or incidence differences.  Initially I only toyed with leading edge stall strips once I flew N12AY as it flew very well and stalls were OK but wing drop was not uncommon.  The stall strips made the aircraft stall warning more pronounced but it took me a few flights to get them tuned.  I found my stall break became more predictable.  See the addendum added on my stall strip work paper at the bottom of "Stall Warning types for the Europa". 



I have installed a stall warning system similar to the Mod 61 (same basic components but different install yet similar) and it works perfectly which cost me about $50 USD.  I added a silence button for slow flight noise reduction/distraction and now I am modifying it (as I always do) to now include an intercom voice warning from the Airbus and a self test for a lot of research time and about $50 more of cheap Chinese components.  I find that I can't hear the horn with my headset on in flight.  I can't help but to tinker.  I've attached another pdf of what I've done so far for my Classic (Stall Warning System Upgrade 2022) on that.  Great fun, fairly cheap, but tedious time-consuming work.  



Finally, I'll attach some drawings of how I moved and modified my stall strips in a picture format as well as my Classic plumbing of it.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 378

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: installation of Stall Strips

These are all great and I'm genuinely having trouble understanding how anyone can still or would want to stall an aircraft's wing once they've memorised the stall stick position of that individual aircraft? Just don't go there unless you intentionally or unintentionally want to enter a spin or are 12" off the deck shooting for a touchdown... The europa exhibits sufficient amount off pre-stall buffeting on the stabilator to tell the pilot "hey things are about to get really pear shaped, unload the stick"!! But i guess the stall strips will just amplify this, so that's a good thing... ðŸ¤·ðŸ¼â€â™‚ï¸

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:49 am Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

I would guess they provide more of a warning and less of a wing drop for those situations where the pilot is distracted due to circumstance?  I instead added both a Smartass Talking ASI and a CYA100 AOA to both bark at me when iâ€™m getting too close when in that situation. Fingers xâ€™d.



Cheers,

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 11, 2022, at 4:03 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 These are all great and I'm genuinely having trouble understanding how anyone can still or would want to stall an aircraft's wing once they've memorised the stall stick position of that individual aircraft? Just don't go there unless you intentionally or unintentionally want to enter a spin or are 12" off the deck shooting for a touchdown... The europa exhibits sufficient amount off pre-stall buffeting on the stabilator to tell the pilot "hey things are about to get really pear shaped, unload the stick"!! But i guess the stall strips will just amplify this, so that's a good thing... ðŸ¤·ðŸ¼â€â™‚ï¸

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508058#508058

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:24 am Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Guys: 

I've felt the same way long ago as many of our folks. 

  

However, if you fly with other people, want to have an aircraft that is saleable to the basically trained, minimally qualified civil  pilot just getting into or returning to aviation, one has to consider the safety devices in his aircraft.  After all, he was trained to pay attention to the warning horn. 

  

As I get older and more feeble, my experience and knowledge wane or are recalled slower, reactions are slower, attention to detail begins  to become fuzzy and it is nice to have a simple warning device not unlike our autos to keep us from over-speeding, warning of excessive closure, proximity, door or seatbelt unsecure, etc.   

  

Nearly all those new to the Europa tend to fail to recognize the approach to the stall when not looking at the airspeed indicator  and nose position.   In the checkout, I always made sure they were competent, however with time unless practiced, we all forget.  Unfortunately, many newbies to the Europa fly higher speeds to assure they do not stall because they remember there was a wing drop or heard of a guy that scared or killed himself.  So, they cross the threshold at 90 and attempt to land.  Worse yet some fly aggressively low to the ground buzzing around and can and do loose control very near the ground sometimes with fatal results.  This reflects on the aircraft reputation, not the pilot.  To the non pilot masses/wives, “He was an airline/military/experienced instructor and could not have EVER flown the aircraft out of control, it must have been the aircraft, system manufacturers or an act of God that caused him to crash”.  Whereas nothing could be further from the truth in many cases. 

  

The proficient Europa flyer is not the problem.  The pilot who is a student of aviation and flies by the numbers, with checklist discipline and maintains his aircraft is not the problem either.   

The experienced or inexperienced casual Europa flier is the problem.  We put warning systems in aircraft to help prevent the casual flier (or old guys like me) from getting into trouble. 

  

In this thread we discuss stall strips.  These stall strips are simply an aerodynamic gimmick that when properly installed will give airframe warning and perhaps correct wing drop or other aerodynamic nuisance for the pilot that is inattentive or otherwise distracted.  The stall strip is virtually free, requires no electricity, should not diminish performance, should be easy to install and position.  Anyone flying the aircraft would note the airframe buffet, and normally would take preventative action to avoid a stall, especially at low altitude. 

  

Electric warning devices are great today, they can be fine tuned and are relatively inexpensive.  They do require setup, construction, wire running, and can fail, but they give another visual or audio warning of approaching the stall.  Today our EFIS has warning indicators built into the display (for those who aren’t looking outside the cockpit) and an audio warning into the headset and or a warning horn for those inattentively looking outside. 

  

I personally like an aural warning of low speed and high angle if maneuvering while looking outside the aircraft.  Unfortunately, with the advent of ANR and superior soundproofing of headsets, it is difficult to hear some warning horns (even the reed type squeakers like in a Cessna 150/162/172/etc. are often missed by pilots).  In that case we add a warning light, but the sun angle can make that difficult to see.  So, we put the warning horn, voice, beeper into the intercom headset to assure the pilot gets the message: you’re approaching a critical AoA (stall).  The nonelectrical simple stall strip adds a comfortable rumble about 5 knots above the stall.  Almost all pilots are in tune to the feel of the aircraft.  If it starts to buffet and shake, one should unload, recover, and glance in the cockpit and find out what the problem is.  I don't know a pilot that is not in tune to aircraft vibration. 

  

Finally, not all aircraft have a comfortable stall.  Rig, build issues, and incidence angles can cause a slight roll or even a loss of lateral control approaching the stall.  Stall strips applied properly can adjust the stall break. 

Usually, I frown on doing stall strips to correct a stall.  I prefer to fix the wing.  However, the reason for the Europa POH stall strip is there to give an aerodynamic warning to the pilot.  It is cheap, requires no electrics, but is a bit time consuming to install and test.  I find the stall strip enjoyable for a warning to pilots checking out that have a tendency to round out high and attempt to try to catch the aircraft as it sinks (what I called the falling leaf approach to landing in other papers).  Without the stall strips I have to send them around.  I also find them useful when doing an extremely minimum roll approach and landing over an obstacle in gusty conditions.  As I cross the threshold, I find I can arrest the rate of descent and adjust power simply by feel of the aircraft rumble just beginning whereas without the stall strips I’m watching the airspeed and frankly landing a bit faster lengthening the float  and rollout.  (I do admit I can land slower without the stall strip by a couple of knots with practice.)   

  

Just another example of the 20,000 compromises an airplane is.  Back to work for me know. 

  

Bud Yerly 

  

Make your airplane your own, but never compromise on its handling.  Fix it. 

  

  

  

--

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 401

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: installation of Stall Strips

Bud, I enjoyed your last reply.



I personally don't have stall strips in my airplane. I find it gives plenty of warning before the stall for me and it stalls straight but yes, it is not very tolerant of mis-coordination. I attribute my sensitivity to detecting the stall to years of flying gliders (often flown at the verge of stall) and full time CFI duties.



However, I liked your posting because despite me not being very old I am starting to get there and you are right on that with age having additional safety measures makes sense (I'm starting to notice the change).



So yes, I will install stall strips in the future or if one day I consider selling my Europa (hopefully not in a very long time). Anything that makes the Europa safer and more relaxing to fly is a plus.



Chris

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:37 pm Post subject: installation of Stall Strips

Chris, 

That is why I made my stall strips, tested them and then painted and removed them.  It only takes a minute and some tape to put them on but like you and most others, we get used to our aircraft and don't install them as it is just more testing.  I like tinkering and I prefer an airplane with a pre-stall rumble warning so I took the time to make them.  Other pilots flying with me like the rumble and stall warner combo to use as a point to recover/slow flight at. 

  

On some Europa's with a forward CG and built light I can do a full aft stick (deep) stall without the stall strips but it is rare.  With stall strips, I can coax a full aft stick stall in many of them.  But there is no need to do a full aft stick stall in reality.  It is a confidence maneuver in some aircraft to demonstrate coordination, rudder control, and aircraft capability.  There is no need for doing that in a light aircraft, but some Europa's can do it.  There is no need to ever do it beyond flight test again unless trying to ascertain if a damage repair is done acceptably.  Other than that...It’s a Worthless Maneuver which done improperly can result in an out of control situation.  Be at least three mistakes high when doing any stalls or aggressive maneuvering. 

  

Mostly I like the gentle rumble during a clean hard turn, warning me of too much pull (AoA) in an airplane.  With the stall strips I find N12AY with full flaps doesn't give me 5 knots of pre-stall warning but three with the stall strips, and the stall speed is 2 knots faster with plenty of warning.  It also tends to drop the left wing in the fully configured stall unless I add in a bit more rudder.  Without the stall strips the left wing drop is a little more pronounced but with proper rudder control I can make it bobble up and down somewhat violently as I get to full aft stick in a heavy buffet (the buffet without the strips is heavy and is a bit  scary).  With the stall strips, it simply rumbles lightly, mushes and has a much less pronounced bobble.  With the stall strips, 12AY will break before you can achieve full aft stick.  Maybe I'll work on that during this winters annual if I get bored.  Of course, it is not broke, so why fix it. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

--

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 401

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:51 am Post subject: Re: installation of Stall Strips

Good advice Bud and curious to give it a try. I'll put it in my list.

Chris

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