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flap takeoff
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jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

Right, Rick.  Agree.

  

     First wheel landing I made was at the St George, Utah0  Airport, a notorious mesa top. Topped off and took off in0 the Cessna 180. Radio came alive..."You left your credit card."  Damn.0 Did a tight 180, no traffic, no wind, dropped it on in a fast wheel landing0 without a bounce, kept the tail up most of the way to the FBO and shut 'er0 down. And hardly ever went back to three-points over the years, maybe 6-10,0000 of em on tarmac, grass, cowpastures, trails in Canada, back streets in0 Baja,  aside from those landings in the tricycle gears I flew.

  

     First flight in the acquired mistreated0 Kolb Mark III just last May, when all went wrong and  throttle almost came0 apart, same thing, Cranked a tight turn and wheeled0 it      on one of the numerous dirt runways at0 Truth or Consequences. Nary a bounce. I'll get to those when I return the Kolb0 to an airworthy state.

  

 A guy named Bodrero told me in my early flying days,0 after watching me bounce a few landings, to forget about looking down. Eye0 on far end of runway, maintain constant appropriate speed and necessary power if0 you've got it, and watch that far end of the runway. Seems to work. He was a0 vintage outlaw Cub pilot. Had a good one and bought a brand new Super Cub0 from the factory, went there and flew it back to Utah. Don  kept 'em as0 sparkling clean as Bach's fictional guru in "Illusions" and you could eat0 off the floor of his immaculate  hangar. 

 jsf

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

     

  

    ---

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

My flap problem on the acquired Mark III is that the detentes the flap 

handle uses have been pretty much destroyed. I can't use them. So I have 

secured the flaps full up with a hose clamp (not shown). I wonder, since 

the other Kolb here at TorC Airport has no flaps and I have no other 

reference, if someone can send me a jpg and or drawings of the appropriate 

area the handle engages. Can't tell from what's left whether there should be 

more detentes. A local A&P says he can make one and rivet it over what's 

left. But he has no idea how many notches there should be, or their spacing. 

Can someone also provide the measurements and spacing of the... what shall 

we call them...hooks, flaps detentes, catches...?

Thanks,



jsf

---

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

If you want to be creative, you can have as many notches as you 

want...even some reflex, so you don't need as much up elevator trim when 

you are carrying a passenger -

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg3.htm

If you are interested, contact me off list, and I'll send you some more 

pictures tomorrow.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



john s. flannery wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My flap problem on the acquired Mark III is that the detentes the flap 

 handle uses have been pretty much destroyed. I can't use them. So I 

 have secured the flaps full up with a hose clamp (not shown). I 

 wonder, since the other Kolb here at TorC Airport has no flaps and I 

 have no other reference, if someone can send me a jpg and or drawings 

 of the appropriate area the handle engages. Can't tell from what's 

 left whether there should be more detentes. A local A&P says he can 

 make one and rivet it over what's left. But he has no idea how many 

 notches there should be, or their spacing. Can someone also provide 

 the measurements and spacing of the... what shall we call 

 them...hooks, flaps detentes, catches...?

 Thanks,



 jsf

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

Thank you for  the landing advice.  

Vic in Sacramento

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: Re: flap takeoff

Here are some closeups of the mechanism. The detent with the holes in it is bolted on to the flat front part of the original detent piece. The handle is modified by making it longer (easier to pull flaps on, more leverage) and also bent a bit to fit under my lowered windshield.

I drilled a hole through the handle tube and welded in a bushing, and then drove a roll pin into the bushing. I located the holes for the various flap detent positions by attaching that piece to where it needed to be, and then scruffing the roll pin up and down on several times, that showed me where the holes could fall in line. Had to do some grinding/tweaking to make everything line up. Finally, I welded a retainer to the handle which bends around to keep the handle from moving very far to the right. You have to tuck the detent piece into place before you put the screws into it. 

With this system, I have about 3 degrees up, neutral, about three degrees down, 10 degrees down, 20 degrees down, and 30 dgrees down. Not quite as much as Kolb originally had, but that is deliberate. If you have 40 degrees of flaps and have to go around or flare with a heavy passenger, you sort of run out of elevator authority. Having a bit less flaps helps cure that, and it still lands about as short as it did with 40 degrees.

Having 3 degrees up reduces the need for as much up elevator trim when carrying a passenger. And when I get light on fuel, 3 degrees down also helps it trim better. Due to differences in airplane weights and pilot weights, your results may vary.

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: Re: flap takeoff

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  



I started to tell him how I used the 

flaps to adjust my glide path to get me where I wanted to land (kind of like 

a negative throttle) and fully retracted them for landing. He stopped me and 

said you never never raise your flaps on approach. We then got into a heavy 

discussion about flap usage. He finally conceded that it might work in one 

of "those" Kolbs but not in a GA aircraft. 

 --- 	




That technique works very well in GA aicraft also.  If you have an engine out and need to glide to the runway, you need to retract the flaps, its the same for a Kolb or a GA aircraft.



This guy took what is considered a good rule of thumb ( do not retract flaps on approach ) and applied it across the board, which is just plain stupid.    If you are in an emergency situation, and have flaps down for the approach, and the engine quits, retracting the flaps might get you enough extra glide to make the runway.



That technique saved my butt once in a Cessna 152.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jsflan(at)valornet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Richard,



Gonna see if my A&P friend can understand it. There's also another A&P here 

who is a CFI and built a Kolb no-flapper. Will get back to you.



Just posted one on mornings brief event. You can probably respond better 

than anybody.



Gracias,



jsf

---

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Anyone retracting flaps in any part of a flight should remember to do  

so GENTLY and SMOOTHLY, always watching the airspeed like a hawk. And  

knowing what your stall speeds are first.

Very easy to get into trouble here, but flaps can be milked off to  

get better glide and range, and can make all the difference when  

trying to  'stretch the glide'  for any reason. You'll glide the  

furthest with flaps fully retracted.

On Aug 3, 2006, at 1:33 PM, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:

> I started to tell him how I used the

> flaps to adjust my glide path to get me where I wanted to land  

> (kind of like

> a negative throttle) and fully retracted them for landing. He  

> stopped me and

> said you never never raise your flaps on approach. We then got  

> into a heavy

> discussion about flap usage. He finally conceded that it might  

> work in one

> of "those" Kolbs but not in a GA aircraft.

>  ---

 That technique works very well in GA aicraft also.  If you have an  

 engine out and need to glide to the runway, you need to retract the  

 flaps, its the same for a Kolb or a GA aircraft.

 This guy took what is considered a good rule of thumb ( do not  

 retract flaps on approach ) and applied it across the board, which  

 is just plain stupid.    If you are in an emergency situation, and  

 have flaps down for the approach, and the engine quits, retracting  

 the flaps might get you enough extra glide to make the runway.

 That technique saved my butt once in a Cessna 152.

 Michael A. Bigelow

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52102#52102

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Speaking of which...  what's the Vfe (max. flap extend speed) on my

MkIIIC?  Anyone know?



  -- R



On 8/3/06, russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Anyone retracting flaps in any part of a flight should remember to do

 so GENTLY and SMOOTHLY, always watching the airspeed like a hawk.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

Do not know the correct speed for flaps on my MkIIIC, but I don't even

try to pull on full flaps above 50 ias.  Not sure that I would have the

strength at 55 or more.  Vic

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