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MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???
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Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

I can't speak for the Mark III, but I have had both flaperons and   

flaps on my current Firestar and have found the flaps to be much  

prefered over the flaperons. The flaperons do not provide near as  

much slow flight roll control and stability as the flaps do.





On Jan 19, 2006, at 10:53 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 What do you guys like better on the MK-III , the classic wing where  

 the flaps and ailerons are seperated, or the newer setup with  

 flaperons ????



 --------

 NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could  

 have !!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5399#5399

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

I like my flaps.

Denny Rowe

do not archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

 	  Quote: 	
		  > 41 hours and I haven't tried them yet.  -still getting used to how 

> slow it

flies without flaps.  I'll let you know what thrills I get this coming 
	


summer.



I like the looks of the flaperon wings,  cleaner and perhaps faster.

-BB  MkIIIc, clipped wings, inboard fences

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  >

>

>

>

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Morning Gang:



Flaps on the MKIII are far more effective than flaperons on the Xtra, 

SS, and FF.



I consider my flaps an invaluable tool.   Greatly increased the 

chances of me getting into a very small area should the engine stop. 

Also a good tool to pop up out of soft fields, mud, tall grass, sand, 

etc.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Is it possible to retro flaps to older Firestars?...



DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Glad to hear that, I am putting classic flaps on my MK-III

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

n79rt(at)kilocharlie.us
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Is it possible to retro flaps to older Firestars?...



DVD

<snip>

Don't know about retro...matter of fact I've never heard of ANY Firestar

with separate flaps and ailerons...



Building the surfaces separate would be a no brainer...modifying the

cage to add a flap actuation mechanism would require some thinking...NOT

impossible just some thinking.



Paul Petty...any pictures of how your adding separate flaps and ailerons

on your Kolbra???



Jeremy

Mutant Kolb builder

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

 	  n79rt(at)kilocharlie.us wrote: 	
		  Don't know about retro...matter of fact I've never heard of ANY Firestar with separate flaps and ailerons...



Building the surfaces separate would be a no brainer...modifying the

cage to add a flap actuation mechanism would require some thinking...NOT

impossible just some thinking.



Paul Petty...any pictures of how your adding separate flaps and ailerons

on your Kolbra???



Jeremy

Mutant Kolb builder 	




Hmmm...  Maybe it would be "reinventing the wheel", would an early Firestar benefit from flaps?...



DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

| Hmmm...  Maybe it would be "reinventing the wheel", would an early 

Firestar benefit from flaps?...

|

| DVD



DVD:



Sure.



However, the original FS was such a good flying airplane, slipped 

well, and landed slow.



If I built another one without flaps, I would probably cut the aileron 

cord in half.  Remembering the FS and US normally stalled at 25 mph, 

Homer designed large ailerons to have roll control through the stall, 

which they did well.



I did make one change to my ailerons and flaps when I built my MKIII 

in 1991.  I had been flying the factory MKIII, learning a lot of 

little things that I would change on my airplane.  One of those was 

ailerons.  Had more than enough to get the job done.  When I laid out 

the ailerons and flaps on the bench to build, I first laid out the 

stock configuration.  Then I took a chalk line, shortened the outboard 

aileron chord to a little over 11", striking a line from there to the 

stock inboard trailing edge corner of the flap.  My think was to 

reduce aileron as much as possible and maintaining as much flap as 

possible, keeping a nice staight trailing edge.  It worked out great.



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  | Hmmm...  Maybe it would be "reinventing the wheel", would an early 

Firestar benefit from flaps?...

|

| DVD



DVD: Sure. However, the original FS was such a good flying airplane, slipped well, and landed slow. john h MKIII 	




Thanx John...



I realize that every plane's characteristics are different...  I landed my Cessna 185 a couple of times without flaps, just to see how it acted, and it wasn't pretty...  On the other side of the coin, I didn't have flaps on my Aeronca Sedan and I could slip it in as short as my Super Cub...  It's part airplane characteristics and a lot of pilot technique...



DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

 	  Eugene Zimmerman wrote: 	
		  I can't speak for the Mark III, but I have had both flaperons and   

flaps on my current Firestar and have found the flaps to be much  

prefered over the flaperons.

	


Eugene,



Could you tell us about how you installed flaps on a Firestar?  I don't recall hearing about it before.

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Flapperons for me.



Mike



do not archive



---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

| Flapperons for me.

|

| Mike



Kiwi Mike:



Why is that?  I find the MKIII flaps far more effective than flaperons 

on Xtra, SS and FF.



john h

MKIIIc

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

John,

The first Firestar I did was an original with full span ailerons.

I split the Flaps in half with the in board half being the flaps with  

the torque hinged on the torque tube of the ailerons similar to the  

Mark III.

The control links were horizontal  like the original aileron control  

rods and went to a flap lever quadrant. It was a very simple and  

straightforward installation.

This plane had unrivaled slow flight capability.

I could fly side by side with a Para plane in a nose high, power on,

  stall mush, somewhere in the neighborhood of 18- 20 mph.

The second one was a Firstar II.

I first built it with flaperons and flew it that way for one season.

I was never happy with the flaperon performance so I changed it to a  

flap aileron setup.

Since the control rods are vertical on the Firestar II and because  

the cage is different it was not as easy to get a simple satisfactory  

control system so I decided to use an electric servo and switch to  

control the flaps since I already had a battery for the electric start.

 From my experience with flaperons and also conventional flaps on the  

same plane, I have decided I will never be interested in having  

flaperons  again.

do not archive

On Jan 20, 2006, at 2:01 PM, John Jung wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Eugene Zimmerman wrote:

> I can't speak for the Mark III, but I have had both flaperons and

> flaps on my current Firestar and have found the flaps to be much

> prefered over the flaperons.

>

 Eugene,

 Could you tell us about how you installed flaps on a Firestar?  I  

 don't recall hearing about it before.

 --------

 John Jung

 Firestar II N6163J

 Surprise, AZ

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5518#5518

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Thats really great to hear everyone likes the classic flaps better.   I think it was John Hauck that saved me from making a mistake last year when I ordered my MK-III.  I would have gone with the flaperons had it not been for your advice      



I will end up with a much better airplane as a result of this list and a lot of good advice from John Hauck also   



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Michael,

We have put flaps on a Kolbra from the Mark III classic plans. We had to go with an electric flap motor from a RV8 to make it work though. How far along are you with your kit? Can you post some photos?

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

I ordered the kit with the classic flaps.  So whatever setup the standard MK III C had is what I have got, nothing is changed from the factory setup.



Sorry, I dont have any pictures to post.  Photography is one of my hobbies, and one day I will fill up this server with lots of pictures     But nothing yet...



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

rswiderski(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Several reports say their experience makes them lean toward the

flaps.  This is a reasonable conclusion if comparing Kolb flaps to Kolb

flaperons, however it may not be the definitive answer.  The reason Kolb

flaperons are not so impressive is that they are in my opinion designed too

conservatively, ie, they do not deflect enough to produce maximum drag/lift

disruption for the obvious reason that an unskilled pilot could get in

trouble if used improperly.  The only real disadvantage of flaperons is that

they inherently produce adverse yaw so roll response will always suffer.

Conversely, the flaps biggest advantage is that they do their thing without

adverse yaw.  

	So why ever resort to flaperons?  I suggest Kolb did so for economy

& simplicity.  But if you are out for getting the ultimate performance in

climb, accelerated descent & slow flight, then flaperons will beat out flaps

every time because unlike flaps, they can change the coefficient of lift

over the entire wing, therefore have the greatest effect as well.  The

caveat to this is that they must be able to be deployed beyond the 20 degree

angle that Kolb conservatively uses.  Furthermore, to get really stunning

performance, you would need a much deeper chord of the full length ailerons

that is found in the FireFly & SlingShot, but then high speed flight control

becomes a manly exercise.  The Helio Courier, attacks this problem with huge

barndoor flaps and flaperons on the outer third of the wings.  If the

flaperons can be sequentially  extended, then you can eliminate the adverse

yaw problem as well, by deploying them on final.  

	When I converted my old UltraStar to flaperons it was a dramatic

change to my flight envelope. Climb rate, rate of descent, and slow flight

characteristics were all significantly improved. It had huge barndoor huge

ailerons from the fuselage tube to the wingtips. They were deployable to 45

degrees & reflexable upwards to 6 degrees.  You had to stand on the rudder

if turns were attempted at full deflection & if a take off was stupidly

attempted in this configuration, the 1200fpm climb was reduced to 350fpm!

Descent, with about 3000rpm, was almost vertical- a very controlled mush.

About 5 degrees deflection made slow flight effortless (I wonder what I

would have had with VG's?!!!) And lightly loaded, 60mph cruise would get a

few more mph with a few degrees positive reflex.  But, six degrees positive

reflex increased stall about 5mph (if I remember right) and not effect roll

response at all.  I often used that configuration when I got caught in gusty

conditions & had problems with being tossed around near the ground.  High

speed stick pressure was horrible, but I was young.  If I ever had the

chance to fly against an UltraStar converted to flaps, my flaperon

configuration would excel in climb, rate of descent & slow flight. Adverse

yaw was only a problem with deployment beyond 20 degrees, & that was only

needed on final so it never was a serious issue.

	So, what would I order with a new kit? I would order the flaps and

flaperon linkage & modify ailerons to be able to sequentially deploy them at

my discretion.



Richard Swiderski

SlingShot

--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

 	  rswiderski(at)earthlink.n wrote: 	
		    But if you are out for getting the ultimate performance in

climb, accelerated descent & slow flight, then flaperons will beat out flaps

every time because unlike flaps, they can change the coefficient of lift

over the entire wing, therefore have the greatest effect as well.  

	




You are very correct rswiderski, I design and build large Radio control planes, and every last one of them has full span Flapperons.  There is no denying the performance of them is awesome.  Changing the shape of the entire wing is more effective than changing the shape of just the inboard part.   The big unknown for me on the Kolb was, are the spoilerons the same chord as the flaps and ailerons ?? and how much control authority is built into them ??  I know what the ideal is, but the real world results of each one is what really counts in the end.  That is why I ignored what the ideal situation is and I asked people what their real world results are.



The cord and travel of the flapperons  could be redesigned, and made with the same chord and authority as the ailerons, but that is quite a huge job and there are always unknowns in doing something like that.  I just was not willing to take that much of a risk and make that big of a design change.  The control forces could have become very large, and even flutter might have been an issue.  The Kolb MK-III flys very well, and im not willing to risk these things, and the realiability of the existing and tested design just to have larger spoilerons.   Also an issue is that with two controls going to the same control surface, the chance of jamming or failure is increased.  And you do not want to lose the ailerons in a Kolb.  



Given all the extra work in fabricating, the inability to change it back once it was done, and all the other possible risks, I was not willing to be the test case here.  It was either the stock Flapperons, or the Stock Flaps and Ailerons.  Given the choice between those two, the overwhelming consensus is that the classic flaps are better.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

rswiderski(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: MK-III ---- Classic flaps or Flaperons ???

Michael, 

	I don't understand where spoilerons come in the picture.  The Kolb

flaperons have  no extra parts to jam.  Not modifying the factory setup is

always the safest way to go & certainly the quickest.  You will have a great

flying machine for sure.	-Richard Swiderski



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