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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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In general I find the best way to settle these questions is to call the EAA.
They have yet to fail me.
Is your question "Can I fly it as an E-LSA?" or "Can I fly it at all?".
For most of us the answer is that we will fly as an "Experimental
Amateur-Built Aircraft", *not* as an E-LSA. If you specifically want to fly
as an E-LSA, what is the key reason?
<quote>
(From http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/elsa.html)
Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft
Experimental amateur-built or "homebuilt" aircraft require that the major
portion of the fabrication and assembly tasks be performed by persons who
are building the aircraft for their own education and recreation. (This is
commonly referred to as the "51% rule".) These aircraft can be flown under
the SP/LSA regulations as long as they meet the definition of a light-sport
aircraft as called out in FAR Part 1.1 (see this page). These aircraft can
be flown for sport or recreation, but can't be used for flight training for
hire or rental. In addition, the maintenance rules for these aircraft have
not changed as a result of the sport pilot regulations.
Some examples of amateur-built or "homebuilt" aircraft that meet the
definition of a LSA include Sonex, Kitfox Model IV, Pietenpol Aircamper, and
the Zenith 601. For a complete listing of homebuilt aircraft that meet the
LSA definition, click here.
<endquote>
The overall article is at
http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/likely_lsa.html.
-- Craig
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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Mike,
This subject has been beat on quite a bit and the archives will tell you
that the amateur built 601XL (kit or scratch) will be certified as
experimental. The LSA catagory is for those built by the mfr, sold as
LSA and built within standards that allow the aircraft to be
used as a Light Sport Aircraft. The one you build will be an
experimental and if it meets the performance standards of Light Sport
Aircraft
you may also fly the aircraft as a LSA. There's a lot of room for your
aircraft to go either way depending on the engine, prop, weight etc
that you use. If it exceeds any of the performance or weight standards
of LSA, it will only be flown as an experimental by a Private Pilot.
I believe the only benefit to you is the ability to use the Sport Pilot
License to fly the plane if it qualifies as LSA.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Do Not Archive
AZFlyer wrote:
| Quote: |
It was recently pointed out to me that certification and operation of an LSA (601 XL) as an Amature built E-LSA could a non-issue or at least, in jepordy of happening, according to this article on p.68.
I keep re-reading the article, and find it confusing, contradictory, and in general, very poorly written. It tends to leave more questions than it answers. Does anyone understand, and can explain what the author is trying to say, other than "doom and gloom" on the horizon?
I am perhaps half done with the airframe, and expect to fly my 601 early next year, but if this author's message is 100% accurate, I am at a loss as to how it will be certified.
Mike
--------
Mike Miller (at) millrml(at)aol.com
601 XL, 3300
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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If you are building the plane yourself from a kit or plans, your best
option would probably be to register it as an Experimental, Amateur
built. That way you can simply apply for the repairman certificate
and do your own annual condition inspections. If you get it
registered as an E-LSA, you will have to take a course and pass a
test to get the inspection rating in order to do your own annuals.
Either way, as long as the airplane meets the limitations of the LSA
category, it can be flown with a light sport pilot certificate. About
the only advantage of the E-LSA category is that the 51% rule don't
apply, someone else can do the building for you. The new LSA rules do
not have any effect on the existing Experimental Amateur built
category.
| Quote: |
It was recently pointed out to me that certification and operation
of an LSA (601 XL) as an Amateur built E-LSA could a non-issue or
at least, in jeopardy of happening, according to this article on p.68.
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--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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dwilde(at)clearwire.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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Rainbow Aviation has suggested that if I complete my 701 by the end of
2007, it can be registered as an ELSA. I would then have to take the 16
hour course to work on it even though I built it. But as I understand
it, the plane would have a greater value on resale because anyone with a
Sport license and the 16 hour course could work on the plane. This
would not be true of an Experimental plane that met Sport Pilot. The
exemption allowing this is only good until the end of 2007.
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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Anyone can work on an E-LSA, the only thing you can't do without the
proper certificate sign off the annual condition inspection. This is
the same as for an Experimental Amateur built airplane.
The big difference is that for an Amateur built aircraft, the only
people who can sign off the annual are the original builder who has
the repairman certificate for that airplane or a certified A & P
mechanic, while anyone who has the LSA-I certificate can sign off the
annual on an E-LSA that he owns. An LSA-I can not sign off an annual
on an airplane he does not own, you must have an LSA-M or A & P
certificate for that.
So if you sell an E-LSA, the new owner can take the 16 hour course
and get an LSA-I and then do his own annuals. A new owner of an E-AB
is out of luck in that regard, he can never sign off his own annuals
on that plane unless he has an A & P certificate (he can have the
original builder sign it off though).
On Aug 31, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Dan wrote:
| Quote: |
Rainbow Aviation has suggested that if I complete my 701 by the
end of 2007, it can be registered as an ELSA. I would then have to
take the 16 hour course to work on it even though I built it. But
as I understand it, the plane would have a greater value on resale
because anyone with a Sport license and the 16 hour course could
work on the plane. This would not be true of an Experimental plane
that met Sport Pilot. The exemption allowing this is only good
until the end of 2007.
> Dan Wilde
>
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--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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rbutterfield(at)mebtel.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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Dan wrote:
| Quote: |
Rainbow Aviation has suggested that if I complete my 701 by the end of
2007, it can be registered as an ELSA.
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I could be wrong, but based on what little I do know it appears that
they may not know what they are talking about.
From the EAA, on this page:
http://www.sportpilot.org/resources/sourcebook.html
is a pile of authoritative information, in an understandable form.
Executive summary:
LSA= the entire group of aircraft that can be flown by an appropriately
certified Sport Pilot.
S-LSA= ready to fly
E-LSA= kit, between 50-95% completed by the factory
experimental= plans, or kit <51% completed by the factory
standard= normal certified plane that fits category performance and
equipment requirements
What the owner can and cannot do depends on which category the plane
fits. Details below:
<quoted, snipped text from sportpilot.org>
What is a Light-Sport Aircraft?
Any aircraft that meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft as
called out in FAR Part 1.1 is eligible to be operated by a sport pilot.
These aircraft can be certificated in any category, such as standard,
experimental amateur-built, experimental exhibition, experimental
light-sport aircraft (E-LSA), or special light-sport aircraft (S-LSA).
(S-LSA)
A special light-sport aircraft is a factory-built, ready-to-fly aircraft
designed and construction accordance with the ASTM consensus standards
for light-sport aircraft (LSA).
(E-LSA)
Experimental light-sport aircraft may be flown by sport pilots. E-LSA
kits that do not conform to amateur-built certification requirements and
will be certificated in the E-LSA category must be based on an aircraft
that has received a special LSA (S-LSA) airworthiness certificate... Its
annual condition inspection may be conducted by an LSA repairman with an
inspection rating, an LSA repairman with a maintenance rating, an
airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic, or a certified repair station.
Experimental
Amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of an LSA may be flown
by sport pilots. Its annual condition inspection may be performed by the
original primary builder if he/she holds the repairman certificate for
the aircraft, an A&P mechanic, or a certified repair station.
<end quoted text>
Since so many "fat" ultralights are out there (factory built, so can't
be "experimental") they also devised a transition system to make them
legal. This is probably what Rainbow is thinking of, but it is only for
existing aircraft, not something that is now being built by you.
<quote>
Ultralights
This list also includes many ultralights, including weight-shift
controlled aircraft (trikes) and powered parachutes, that are eligible
to transition to experimental light-sport aircraft status. That
transition must be completed no later than January 31, 2008.
<end quote>
All this information, and much more, is available from the above
mentioned web site. This also includes the actual FAA rule, both in it's
original 452 page version as well as the condensed, 19 page version.
--
Regards,
RonB
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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Too my knowledge there isn't an E-LSA kit for either the 601 or 701. The quick build kit might qualify but it not listed as such on the Zenith web site.
One thing to remember is that if you build an E-LSA you can not deviate from the plans at all.
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot, Aug. 2006, p.68 What is the story? |
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There are no E-LSA kits available that meet FAR 21.191(i)(2).
However, an aircraft can be certificated as an E-LSA under FAR 21.191
(i)(1), which was intended to allow "fat" ultralights to be
certificated as E-LSAs. This rule applies to any aircraft that does
not meet the restrictions of part 103 for ultralights but does meet
the limitations of LSA and has never held an airworthiness
certificate before. Many current aircraft kits meet all these
requirements, including the 601 and 701. This option is available
until January 31, 2008.
The three ways to get an E-LSA certificate:
§21.191 Experimental certificates.
* * * * *
(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft
that–
(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness
certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this
chapter. An
experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph
for these
aircraft after January 31, 2008;
(2) Has been assembled—
(i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the
information required by §21.193 (e); and
(ii) In accordance with manufacturer’s assembly instructions
that meet an applicable consensus standard; or
(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness
certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190.
On Aug 31, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Gig Giacona wrote:
| Quote: |
Too my knowledge there isn't an E-LSA kit for either the 601 or
701. The quick build kit might qualify but it not listed as such on
the Zenith web site.
One thing to remember is that if you build an E-LSA you can not
deviate from the plans at all.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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