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experimental208nd(at)COMC
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Hi Guys,



Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK.



He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last night.



He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even 

checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right side 

one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site?

While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but the 

right tank still had  1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff untill 

settling after landing.

Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped!



Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the landing, at 

1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a fast plane.

Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver  that feeds the 

bog.



No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass and 

Pride.



Problem is:  If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was there 

gas still in it???  I donot remember if he has the glass fuel filters off of 

each tank?

I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, clog 

in line and ran out of gas in the other wing.

He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago in NH 

at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol.

They are still invesigating it.



But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, not 

making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them.

Lets just learn from the accidents, ok.



Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under his 

belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info.



Jay Fabian

4-1200 912UL



PS. What ever was the out  come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem?  we have 

the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass.



---

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Jay,



Thanks for the report and good news that they are ok.



It can happen to anyone and sounds like a pretty good forced approach he 

made and with little damage .



Dave





---

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

One other thing that irks me is the terms often thrown about by the news 

media. On the video the term "nosedived into a cranberry bog" was used. 

Obviously the aircraft damage was not consistent with what I understand 

as a nosedive accident.

 m-w.com defines "Nosedive" as:

*1* *:* a downward nose-first plunge of a flying object (as an airplane).



 Maybe it's debatable, but I would have said "nosed over after an 

emergency landing" as he had run out of roll out room before reaching 

the water.

Well, what can you do when News folks don't bother to run their script 

by even a low time student pilot for accuracy.

Rex

Colorado



Jay Fabian wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 <experimental208nd(at)comcast.net>



 Hi Guys,



 Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK.



 He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last 

 night.



 He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even 

 checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right 

 side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site?

 While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but 

 the right tank still had  1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff 

 untill settling after landing.

 Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped!



 Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the 

 landing, at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a 

 fast plane.

 Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver  that feeds 

 the bog.



 No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass 

 and Pride.



 Problem is:  If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was 

 there gas still in it???  I donot remember if he has the glass fuel 

 filters off of each tank?

 I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, 

 clog in line and ran out of gas in the other wing.

 He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago 

 in NH at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol.

 They are still invesigating it.



 But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, 

 not making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them.

 Lets just learn from the accidents, ok.



 Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under 

 his belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info.



 Jay Fabian

 4-1200 912UL



 PS. What ever was the out  come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem?  

 we have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass.

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

---

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

We had a Piper get caught in a wake behind a 767 ( I thank it might have

been something else)here in Kansas City about 8 or 9 months ago.  On the

news report they said that " it was heard shifting gears and then it fell

out of the sky" .  I'm still waiting for some one to show me where the gear

shift lever.  It seems to be the case that most media outlets are more

interested in saying something fast rather then something correct or

intelligent.



 



--

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Glad all is well with the pilot and passenger.  Now to reilerate on the fuel caps.  They are the last things I check before I get in the plane.  In the last month I've had one cap that was off, forgot I put it in the window next to where the pin for the wing goes.  Now  this one will scare you guys, I had a cap that was not clipped on the second clip, if that makes sense.  When I check the cap I always grap the vent end, this does two things, makes sure the cap is on right, forward, and if it's solid on the wiggle test, then both clips are secure.  This cap wasn't, scared me, but then I was on the ground so all was well, removed the cap, reinstalled and went flying.

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Jay,

Ok, to tell this story I have to admit that I, a man, perfect as I am, made

a mistake..... once,     2 years ago I flew out of the primitive area and

fueled at Salmon. While self fueling, I was talking, and well shooting the

bull. Some one else pulled up a bit close for me and I hurried to finish. I

remember that I left the passenger cap a bit loose or something. I was going

to go back to it after I put the hose down. Ok, I did not. After take off I

listened to other guys talk about debris on the runway. One asked what color

it was, one asked what it looked like, some one said it had a goose neck on

it and was chrome..... Duh, at the same time my fuel system was alarming

with bells that I had low pressure. Investigation showed almost 0 lbs of

pressure. My wife said there  was a blue cloud on her side... ok crap... we

announced the part was ours and were returning, lord don't let us back

fire.... we lost 8 gal. In about 10 minutes, it sucked the fuel from the

wing with the cap on, and lowered the pressure to the point to alarm my

gages..... I assume this has happened today ...again.. 



John Oakley 



--

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

John, what an experience.  Do you have seperate shut off valves for each tank?  I do and I usually pic a tank to run off of and shut the other one off.  I wonder if that would prevent problems by turning off one tank and running on the other if the cap was missing.  One thing I am serious about doing is putting a low fuel alarm on my header tank.  Seems a wise thing to do now.

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Thanks for the heads up .  Very Glad both are ok . I do agree this is no 

place to make jokes but to learn and not condemn . Hopefully he will have 

the lady back in the air soon .



Fly safe fly low fly slow

John Perry

Kitfox 2 N718PD

582 But soon to be Subbie

TD and Straight Floats

---

neflyer48(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

I ran off without a gas cap a couple of years ago. After about 20 miles the 

capless tank was running over and the tank with the cap on showed empty. I 

made it to my destination OK. I'm sure the reason the capless tank ran over 

is that the tank with the cap on is pressurized from the forward tube and 

forced the gas over to the tank with no cap. (I don't have shut-off valves 

between them).



Jerry Kohles M3,912

---

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

OK OK OK i will tell one on Myself  After refuleing the nose tank on my Mod 

2 i set the cap on , then proceeded to fill the wing tank I did put that one 

on good and tite and the vent pointing forward . A friend came by and we 

talked for 5 min or so then i got in started up and taxied out on the take 

off 150 into the roll the front cap left the plane and rolled to the side of 

runway and the gas was being siphoned out up and over the windshield faster 

than i could get her shut down . I thought she would burn with all that gas 

dripping into and on the exhaust but some one was looking out for em that 

day and i survived . after new windshield .

Preflight now says fuel first check caps on Last part of preflight says 

Check fuel caps on . I think even i get complacent in my daily life and 

things i do . so a written reminder is good .



Fly safe fly low fly slow



John Perry

kitfox 2 N718pd

582 Soon to be Subbie

TD and Straight Floats



 	  Quote:

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Kitfox mike,

I firmly believe if I had a vent from the header tank, I would have gone

down with fuel in the tanks. I have since, been very wary of my fuel

systems; we lost several good people from our list the same way years ago.

John Oakley



--

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

John,

Can you or someone clarify. Please explain.

Vent from the header to one main tank is the standard design.

Did the forced landing have the standard fuel system with the header 

behind the seat?

This design gives some small margin even with empty main tanks and 

the low level sensor warns the pilot of impending fuel exhaustion.



Thanks, Paul

=================



At 11:30 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



Kitfox mike,

I firmly believe if I had a vent from the header tank, I would have gone

down with fuel in the tanks. I have since, been very wary of my fuel

systems; we lost several good people from our list the same way years ago.

John Oakley



--

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Paul,

We have had discussions on the header tank vent many times on the web. I

have had several, just lately on this subject with a couple of our guys. We

lost several planes over the years due to fuel starvation and had full or

partial full tanks, I don't want to libel myself here, but do want to save

any of us from repeating accidents. I can't say what happened to the plane

this week, but do know that with a open header tank vent you can empty the

header and still have fuel on board. I believe we had problems earlier with

the loops in the hose from the tank (for wing folding) getting air in them,

causing the tank to unport. The header then emptied. 

Valves in the lines to the header from the tanks will allow some degree of

trouble shooting in the air. These valves would have stopped the suction

from pulling fuel from both tanks. A valve in the header vent will be closed

in flight forcing the fuel to be pulled from one tank or the other as

controlled. You still have to worry about plugged tank vents or full

screens. I use a fuel pressure gage to help trouble shoot, it is a life

saver for me. I also have an electric booster under the seat that is my

comfort thing. 



Sorry for the ramble, John Oakley



--

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

This might not apply but, is along the same subject line.  I have a riding 

lawnmower and the fuel system is "similar" to a kitfox.  That is, has a 

large tank above the engine and is gravity fed to the engine.  Now, my 

lawnmower will run 1/2 of the fuel in the tank and then, go dead (out of 

fuel).  This is observed by the completely empty inline fuel filter.  It's 

not the vented cap because it happens with the cap off?????  If I pull the 

tank side line off the filter, fuel again starts to flow from the tank, 

refills the filter and off she runs again???  It has to be some sort of 

vapor lock and wonder if some sort of similar situation could happen to a 

Kitfox system.  BTW, the lawnmower will use the whole tank if filled with 

100LL.  100LL tends not to vapor lock like autofuel.  I spend hours and 

weeks testing my Fox fuel system to see what would conditions could cause 

flow restrictions etc.  This lawnmower system has me stumped.



Don Smythe

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

John,

    This fuel thing used to be one of my favorite subjects.  I am missing a 

couple things you said. See below



---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

John,

If the fox that went down in the bog had a "standard" kitfox fuel system

with the header vented into one of the main tanks, I can understand what

happened.  As someone already pointed out, if the cap is missing or leaking,

it will suck fuel out of the other tank and the engine should run until the

other tank is empty.  This will leave the tank with the missing cap with

fuel in it.



When you talk of the header tank vent, do you mean with it vented to one of

the main tanks?  Or elsewhere?  



I don't understand how the header tank can empty and still have fuel in the

mains unless a cap is missing or the header tank is vented to somewhere

else.



This is an important issue.



Randy



.           



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

It might be wrong to claim the "standard" design has one thing or another as 

there are many iterations of the design. Mine has two 13? gal wing tanks and 

a 2? gal header. The header tank has only a bleed vent that ends at the 

firewall and is normally closed. This is exactly as documented in my manual 

from '92.

---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

restricted line, bad fuel pump???

PW

=========

At 08:08 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



This might not apply but, is along the same subject line.  I have a 

riding lawnmower and the fuel system is "similar" to a kitfox.  That 

is, has a large tank above the engine and is gravity fed to the 

engine.  Now, my lawnmower will run 1/2 of the fuel in the tank and 

then, go dead (out of fuel).  This is observed by the completely 

empty inline fuel filter.  It's not the vented cap because it 

happens with the cap off?????  If I pull the tank side line off the 

filter, fuel again starts to flow from the tank, refills the filter 

and off she runs again???  It has to be some sort of vapor lock and 

wonder if some sort of similar situation could happen to a Kitfox 

system.  BTW, the lawnmower will use the whole tank if filled with 

100LL.  100LL tends not to vapor lock like autofuel.  I spend hours 

and weeks testing my Fox fuel system to see what would conditions 

could cause flow restrictions etc.  This lawnmower system has me stumped.



Don Smythe

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!

Thanks Don,

  You are technically correct. and proved it by testing. Now I wonder 

what the real story was about the forced landing. Maybe John can 

expand his explanation?

Paul

===========



At 08:58 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



John,

    This fuel thing used to be one of my favorite subjects.  I am 

 missing a couple things you said. See below



---

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