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VORTEX GENERATORS
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wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

How many of you that installed VG's on your planes also added them to the 

under side of the horizontal stabilizer?



What are the advantages / disadvantages of adding them to the HS.



I ordered some from Landshorter yesterday but for the wing only, now I'm 

wondering if the "wing only" is adequate.



Chris Mallory



 do not archive

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

 	  wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com wrote: 	
		  How many of you that installed VG's on your planes also added them to the 

under side of the horizontal stabilizer?

What are the advantages / disadvantages of adding them to the HS.

I ordered some from Landshorter yesterday but for the wing only, now I'm 

wondering if the "wing only" is adequate.

Chris Mallory

do not archive 	




Chris, there was some discussion about this earlier...  There seems to be some concern that the horiz. stab. VGs might make the elevators too effective...  I have them on my Firestar tail, but I have nothing to compare to...



DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

They may not be needed on the horizontal stab.  If the wing is stalling before the elevator, there is really nothing to be gained by putting VG's on the elevator.   There is a drag penalty associated with VG's, its not a lot, but I would not put VG's on that dont need to be there.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

At the Kolb Fly-In shortly before his terrible accident, Norm flew my 

MKIII with VG's for a while, solo, stalled it, wore it out, which is 

what I wanted, and his postflight analysis was a lot like this:



It feels much lighter, more like a Firefly than a MKIII. The stall is 

notably slower, and very acceptable, but it feels almost like it might 

be approaching a "deep stall" condition when stalled power off and full 

flaps. However he was unable to get it into a stall condition which did 

not immediately recover when stick back pressure was relaxed. He told me 

it was one of the best handling MKIII's he had flown. When queried about 

adding VG's to the underside of the horizontal stab, and/or gap sealing 

the horizontal stab to the elevators, he was very hesitant. He was 

concerned that it might be possible to force the airplane into a deep 

stall with possible adverse recovery techniques. He also said that 

perhaps that was a groundless concern, because getting a MKIII to fly 

that in that slow of a speed regime was pretty much an unknown, and it 

might stall and recover just fine. His suggestion was that since it was 

already stalling slower and flying better than it had any right to, just 

leave it alone and don't screw it up by trying anything else, just fly 

the approach a bit faster when I had a passenger.



So that's what I did. The only time I have felt the need for VG's on the 

underside of the horizontal tail is when flying an approach with a 

passenger at 45 mph (indicated) and full flaps. At that speed, the tail 

does not have enough control authority to raise the nose for flare, 

although it is still 13 mph above the (indicated) 28 mph stall speed at 

gross weight, which is probably around 33 mph TAS. So when I have a 

passenger, approaches are at 55 indicated, or partial flaps.



However, others on the list have added VG's to the underside of the 

horizontal stab and like them quite well. So make sure your parachute is 

good to go, gets lots of altitude, and experiment. You might be able to 

gild the lily. But remember: when in ground effect on short final, your 

results may vary.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Chris Mallory wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



How many of you that installed VG's on your planes also added them to the 

under side of the horizontal stabilizer?



What are the advantages / disadvantages of adding them to the HS.



I ordered some from Landshorter yesterday but for the wing only, now I'm 

wondering if the "wing only" is adequate.



Chris Mallory



 do not archive

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

At 10:52 AM 1/24/06 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



How many of you that installed VG's on your planes also added them to the 

under side of the horizontal stabilizer?



What are the advantages / disadvantages of adding them to the HS.



I ordered some from Landshorter yesterday but for the wing only, now I'm 

wondering if the "wing only" is adequate.



Chris Mallory



 do not archive




	


Chris,



I mounted VG's on the FireFly wings.  Then I added VG's to the horizontal 

stabilizers to get a little more bite when using the flaperons.  Previously, 

I had discovered that I could not flare the FireFly with full flaperons.



Also, I noticed after adding wing VG's, that the wing wanted to fly off in 

the three point stance before there was any feel in the stick.  Adding VG's 

to the horizontal stabilizer helped.



I have not stalled the FireFly at altitude in it's current configuration.  

It is on my short list of things to do.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Group,



I have my set of LandShorter VG's, and now I have to put them on. I went to Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart and a harware storeto get the 3M tape, and cannot find it.



So, I thought that I would skip the tape and put them on permanently. But I don't know how much Loctite 401 is needed.



I also don't have any formica laying around to make a template.



Any tips on installing the LandShorters will be appreciated. Also, is 11 inches back from the leading edge the best position on a Kolb?

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

HShack(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

In a message dated 1/24/2006 1:57:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

jrjungjr(at)yahoo.com writes:

Any tips on installing the LandShorters will be appreciated. Also, is 11 

inches back from the leading edge the best position on a Kolb?

My VG's seem to work best on the FS II with the rear of them at 11" back.  Do 

not measure following the curve of the wing but do use a square & measure 

straight back.



Howard Shackleford

FS II

SC

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Hi John,



        Have you tried a hobby shop that has RC planes?  They have 

double-sided tape in various thicknesses.  Also try the big office supply 

stores.



        You could probably make a template out of poster board.  The 

placement isn't that critical, close is good.



        As far as the worries about 'deep stall' with VG's on the tail 

bottom, the conventional configuration of the Kolbs does not lend itself to 

that.  Aft CG would be a much bigger worry in any stall recovery scenario. 

The conventionally-configured GA aircraft (non T-tail) aircraft I've flown 

with VG's on the bottom of the tail flew off nicely at takeoff, rock-solid 

at slow speeds, but when they quit flying it was a bit more abrupt than 

without VG's.  Still had good control, but you better be 6" off the ground 

when it quit.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Here are some pictures of the VG's on the wing of our FSII, and notes on 

placement.

Don't know anything about Loctite 401, we used Shoe Goop from Walmart.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Jung wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Group,



I have my set of LandShorter VG's, and now I have to put them on. I went to Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart and a harware storeto get the 3M tape, and cannot find it.



So, I thought that I would skip the tape and put them on permanently. But I don't know how much Loctite 401 is needed.



I also don't have any formica laying around to make a template.



Any tips on installing the LandShorters will be appreciated. Also, is 11 inches back from the leading edge the best position on a Kolb?



--------

John Jung

Firestar II N6163J

Surprise, AZ





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=6495#6495

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

No picture link



do not archive

---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Chris Mallory wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



No picture link

  



Oh, yeah - Duh...
	


http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm



Scroll down to Firestar II Tweaks and Hints, click on Vortex Generators



[quote]do not archive

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

At 01:56 PM 1/24/2006, you wrote:

I went to an "auto paint store" and got the "good" double stick tape.



Automotive Acrylic Plus Attachment Tape

Stick it on the bottoms of the VGs, then cut around the edges with an 

exacto knife.

When you putting them on your wings, you just pull the paper off the 

botton and stick them down.

Haven lost one yet.



The instructions say put them on 10 to 12% of the wing cord (including the

ailerons)

back from the leading edge.  Too far forward and they will slow down the cruise

speed, too far back and they become ineffective.



I put mine about 11% or 6 1/2 inches back from the leading edge as measured

through the middle of the cord of the wing - average cord.

But you better check with the instructions.



The instructions say VG's should be placed about 1% of the wingspan apart.

I have a 27' 9" wing span.

So I put two in each valley and used the 2.75 inch spacing guide

to "kind of space them out" between each rib and false rib etc.

Just a guess, but it seemed to work out OK.

I made a guide out of some thicker material with the little "rectangles" cut

out where the VG's go, so I could just stick them in the holes

and move the guide to the next valley.

I just put two on at a time and moved the guide to the next set of ribs.

I used the T-square method like Ben Ransom for the set back



<http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/Vortex%20Generators.html>http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/Vortex%20Generators.html



It took more time to put the tape on each VG than it did

to put the VGs on the plane.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Group,



I have my set of LandShorter VG's, and now I have to put them on. I 

went to Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart and a harware storeto get the 3M 

tape, and cannot find it.



So, I thought that I would skip the tape and put them on 

permanently. But I don't know how much Loctite 401 is needed.



I also don't have any formica laying around to make a template.



Any tips on installing the LandShorters will be appreciated. Also, 

is 11 inches back from the leading edge the best position on a Kolb?



--------

John Jung

Firestar II N6163J

Surprise, AZ

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The instructions say VG's should be placed about 1% of the wingspan apart.

I have a 27' 9" wing span.

So I put two in each valley and used the 2.75 inch spacing guide


	


I forgot to say that I've got an 8 rib wing - your's may be different.

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Don G.



After your testing, how far back did you place the LandShorters? What distances from the leading edge did you try?

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

At 12:23 AM 1/25/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Don G.



After your testing, how far back did you place the LandShorters? 

What distances from the leading edge did you try?



--------

John Jung

Firestar II N6163J

Surprise, AZ


	


That's the advantage of using the tape to put them on. You can take 

them off with mineral spirits (at least with the tape I used) and 

move them. Doesn't hurt the lexan VGs either. I stuck one on my car 

windshield for a week before I ever put them on my plane - just to 

make sure they would stay in place and to make sure I could take them 

off if I didn't like them. They "may" work just as well at 11 inches 

back as they do at 11% of the cord. I don't know, I didn't have to 

move mine. If your not Very impressed at what they do, I would not 

leave them on your plane. It's not something that you would have to 

wonder if they're working or not - you will definitely know the 

difference. Especially on take off - when you go full throttle and 

just keep easing the stick back. Your nose just keeps going up and up 

- your speed keeps going down and down - and it just doesn't stall. Neat!!

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

John J,



You are taxing my poor memory John...(grin).....but I had those VGs from 14 back from the leading edge...to 6 inchs back..measured with a square..not around the airfoil. I also tryed a staggered pattern...and a chevron pattern...with the outboard VGs aft and the inboard fore. Neither of these worked worth a dang BTW. NOw I have the landshorters on permenant...all my moveing around was with the alum vgs John , as the little LS VGs couldnt hardly be applied with tape. As I mentioned...mine are a little farther back than LS recommended. They had a spec...which I cannot remember..but was a % of the chord from the LE..when I calculated this, it was at the foremost of the testing I did..and knew I wanted a higher ROC than a lower stall and set the LS vgs back a bit..I think about 10 or 11 inchs..I will measure them when I get over to the hangar sometime. I guess I oughtta go see if the flag fly is still there! Been working on this old Luscombe in what spare time I have.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

n79rt(at)kilocharlie.us
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

<snip>



 I stuck one on my car 

windshield for a week before I ever put them on my plane - just to 

make sure they would stay in place and to make sure I could take them 

off if I didn't like them. They "may" work just as well at 11 inches 

back as they do at 11% of the cord. I don't know, I didn't have to 

move mine. If your not Very impressed at what they do, I would not 

leave them on your plane. It's not something that you would have to 

wonder if they're working or not - you will definitely know the 

difference. Especially on take off - when you go full throttle and 

just keep easing the stick back. Your nose just keeps going up and up 

- your speed keeps going down and down - and it just doesn't stall.

Neat!!



<snip>

Hey Possum...just have to know...did it help gas mileage on your car???







Jeremy Casey

Mutant Kolb builder...(like you)

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