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A special Zodiac XL 601
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Wouldn't it be nice to see the Zenith people themselves weigh in on this. 

Everything I see here is just speculation.

---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

No, no, no - this is the Internet. We live for this sort of thing 



-- Craig 



--

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

"the Zenith people" are already on the record on this subject. See their web page:



 http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html



 where they state:



 

 NON-CONFORMING COPIES

 By Gabriel Gavard



 "Chris Heintz and sons, designers and manufacturers of the Zodiac CH 601 and STOL CH701 series of aircraft (built from plans only, from partial or from complete kits by homebuilders), are getting less tolerant of supposedly "improved" pirated copies of their designs. Zenith Aircrafts internet homepage recently added a new link identifying rebel copies of their aircrafts originating from Brazil, Poland and Italy. The company has been sending updates and cautionary notices to the aviation press on a regular basis regarding these "new" machines, clearly derived from the CH 701 or CH 601, clearly unauthorized.



 "The principle cause spurring the spread of these copies on the new light-plane market is not just the undeniable success of these two designs now commonly registered as ultralights in many countries. A prime contributing factor has been the availability of complete blue-prints and assembly manuals for all components aircraft in question from Zenith Aircraft. This intentional move by Chris Heintz has allowed hundreds of aviation enthusiasts around the world to build and fly their own aircraft, on a budget. 



 "Making these construction plans available, while not profitable, was a generous move by Heintz in "the spirit of homebuilding". It is also having dire commercial repercussions: The designers gesture has now been dishonored and misused by a number of unscrupulous manufacturers who, by their very actions, attest to their own inability to conceive and engineer their original aircraft. Naturally, each of these nevertheless had the expertise to then "improve" on the original design. 



 "The motivation for the modifications has been varied: Changes to avoid "copyright" infringements; advanced or complete assemblies to meet market demands (ready-to-fly, custom modifications, etc.); and "improved" performances, often sadly based on strokes of ingenious intuition by novice builders not yet fully aware that every airplane is a sum of compromises&



 "Chris Heintz engineers his airplanes to well-known stringent standards. Every component and flight characteristic is conceived to work in harmony with the whole from the outset. The wings, fuselage and tail; the controls, the cabin and the rest form that whole which can be appreciated in its entirety. Modify just one, let alone several, of these elements without reviewing the whole and clearly, the machine as a unit will have been tainted&"



   * R & D[/b]: Research and Development, but also sometimes known as Rip-off and Duplicate.



  I agree that anyone building an experimental may make changes, at his or her own risk. But to make a commercial copy of a Chris Heintz design is dishonest and  unethical. I hope that the Brazilians will not go forward with their copycat design. If they want to sell a kit, they should design one and sell it.



 Terry



 

 At 12:57 PM 10/14/2006 -0300, you wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca>



 Wouldn't it be nice to see the Zenith people themselves weigh in on this. Everything I see here is just speculation.



 

 ---

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Like Rosalie I was initially mesmerized by beauty of the mods. After getting

it, I too am concerned. The worst offense I noticed, after reading the

translation, is the statement about 1000's of these already flying. I think

we all know the danger in this statement. This is NOT a tested design. It is

totally irresponsible to suggest otherwise. 



Kevin Bonds



Nashville TN



601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.



Empennage done; working on wings and engine.



http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds



 



do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE 



 



--

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: Re: A special Zodiac XL 601

I too am concerned with the change in metals. Quoting the are of the site that talks about budget. I get the following Google translation. Now I don't what the properties of those are but they weren't what the designer intended.



  	  Quote: 	
		  The Kit made with plate 5052 - H38 has all the Stringers, of the wings, profundor and stabilizer made in aluminum 2024 T-3.

2-SÃ³ I can vender the Kit so that it has the project, in case that you I want I can buy, or you yourselves purchase for the Internet, costs 390 dollars, +, this gives to the guarantee to be in day with the designer and is demanded the Invoice in the hour of you to make the document of the airplane.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Gig,

5052-H38 aluminum is used for deep press container segments and it gets 

more resistant during the work done on it.

We're talking pots and cookware here.  In aircraft speak, other than a 

fuel tank it's application would be limited. As it gets stressed, it

work hardens.  Not a product I'd want to put into actual wing structure 

as its elongation is less than half that of 2024-T3 and 6061-T6

aluminum for aircraft structures.   Ultimate is approx 42K for all 

three, but 5052-H38 has elongation of 7000 psi, where the 2024-T3 and

6061-T6 have 17000 psi elongation properties.  This speaks to the 

durability over long term for structural loading.

I used 5052-H32 for my header and wing tanks, and at .040, it's a little 

softer, but excellent for a fuel tank, welding, forming etc.

Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

I too am concerned with the change in metals. Quoting the are of the site that talks about budget. I get the following Google translation. Now I don't what the properties of those are but they weren't what the designer intended.

>The Kit made with plate 5052 - H38 has all the Stringers, of the wings, profundor and stabilizer made in aluminum 2024 T-3.

>2-SÃ³ I can vender the Kit so that it has the project, in case that you I want I can buy, or you yourselves purchase for the Internet, costs 390 dollars, +, this gives to the guarantee to be in day with the designer and is demanded the Invoice in the hour of you to make the document of the airplane.

>    

>

--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

lenabeto(at)uol.com.br
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Hi Folks:

  

 Thanks a lot  for the  compliments.

  

  

 To Mark Towsends, Terry Philips and so  on,

  

 I didn't understand your criticism. You used a lot  of four-letter words that do not reflect the events.

  

 Then see;

 I "bought" and "paid for" a set of drawings  (sn-6096) and I built a plane and you said that I'm a thief.

 You offended me. You do not know the changes that I  did. The changes aren't approved  by Chris Heintz, but I have an  aeronautical engineer that approved them. But you made several "comments", you  said I changed de wings, it isn't true. The wings are the same, the structural  integrity is the same. Then, where is the robbery? What did I  steal?

 I intend to "buy" and "pay for" more set of  drawings and build more planes. Is it robbery?

 I could have shown it at any Airshow and say that  it was a new design with another name, but I didn't do this. I've always said,  it's a Zodaic XL 601. Is it lack of ethics?

 On my website it's very clear, that I do not  build copies and I staded there I can only help build a plane someone that has  an original "Set of Drawings and Invoice".

  

 Then folks, I'm not a "copy cat", a  "pirate".

 My plane will fly on October 31, Before  this, I'll do all fine settings.

 Afterwards I'd would like to meet you all at  Oshkosh-2007 and talk about planes, of course, and drink some beer.

  

  

 Roberto Brito.

  

 Ps: About 5052-H38 aluminun, my aeronautical  enginner *Master* "Pinheiro Neto" will explain next week.

 *Pinheiro Neto is a Master in Aeronautical Science  by ITA-Brazil

 "ITA" for us the equivalent to "MIT" for  you 

  

 ======================================

  

  I'll reply Davidson's questions;   

  

  

  To Jeff Davidson;

  

  

 Hi Jeff, 

  

                       Roberto,

       

                   A couple questions if I may:

       

                   Who is Air-Fox?

 -- Airfox is my trade mark, I have a hangar named  "AirFox  Ultraleves"

      

                   Is that a constant speed propeller hub on the 3300?

 -- Mine is a Woodcomp SR 3000, variable pitch, three  blade propeller with reverse gear. It is

       newness

 

      

                   Did you design the cabin and turtle deck areas yourself? 

 -- Exactly, it was myself and  my employees. 

 

                   Did you include roll-over protection?

 -- Yes, I did.

      

                    What does the RB mean in "ZODIAC XL RB"?

 -- It means "R"oberto "B"rito, it could have been "JD" from Jeffrey  Davidson. It was just a  joke.

      

                   Nice looking seats!

       

                   Thanks =85.

       

                   Jeff Davidson

  

 =======================================

  

  Craig Payne;

  

  About  bad  translation;

  

 You completely slaughtered the meaning of my website  message.

 I'm sure I don't deserve it. 

 

 =======================================

 To    Craig Payne

 

      

       Roberto's 601 will undoubtedly be one of the fastest because of the  

      blended canopy to tail, flush riveting, wing  root fairings etc.

      It'll be interesting to see  his flight data when he begins testing.  "His  

      would be an interesting variation for  Zenith to copy and capture"

      a much larger  market.  I think it's exceedingly well done.  Did notice  

      his front fork is on backwards though,  because the center of

      pivot should be like a  caster, ahead of the axle.

       

      Larry McFarland - 6011HDS at  www.macsmachine.com

      

        wrote:

   

 Hi Larry;

 You've already mentioned the backward fork, on August - 2006  and I immediatly corrected it.

 About "... an interesting variation for Zenith to copy and  capture a much larger market...", I'm not quite confident I caught the idea,  once you are constantly recriminating "copy cats".



 ======================================

 To  Craig Payne; 

  

       A philosophical question is if it is still a  601XL. Aside from the top skins

      (which are  composite) those wing-tips are there for a reason. Did you  notice

      he is not using pulled rivets and using  2024-T3?

      The prop appears to  be in-flight adjustable:

       

      "After this he is to place the engine, a  Jabiru 3300, with helix trip of

      changeable  step (Woodprop), e the reverse, that this way I find that it  is

      newness."

       

      -- Craig 

  

 Craig;

 I could give another name, but I do have a serial numbers  (sn-6096), and for me it has always been a Zodiac XL 601.

 Maybe I over did my job.

  

 ======================================

   [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Roberto,

  

  >> You completely slaughtered the  meaning of my website message.

  >>  'm sure I don't deserve  it. 

 

 It was an automated translation done by Google. I don't speak  Portuguese

  

 How do you like your Stratomaster Enigma so far? Mine arrives Friday.

  

 --  Craig

   [quote][b]

gk(at)601hd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Roberto,

  

 As you  gathered, many on this list were concerned that you were planning to  manufacture and sell kits, or completed aircraft based on your  modifications. From your message it sounds like you are a regular  builder, building one plane from one set of plans.  There is nothing wrong  with that.  

  

 Your  web site is excellent, your plane is beautiful and I wish you all the luck in  the world with your test flights.   Please take the advice and  commentary from this group as constructive.  Over the years that I have  been a member of this group we have experienced several members  becoming "accident statistics".  We cant afford to lose people like  that.  There are far too few Zenith (and Zenith-based) airplanes in the  sky.

  

 Of course we are all building "Experimental"  aircraft and at liberty to make whatever changes we like.  Having a  qualified aeronautical engineer design/approve the modifications may well be  helpful especially if he agrees to be the test pilot and will continue to  monitor the condition of the airframe as the plane ages.

  

 Best  Regards,

 Graham  Kirby

 601HD

  

  

 --

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Sorry List I have sent my reply to Roberto directly, quite evidently he does not understand that you cannot deviate from the designers plans on major modifications and use another designer to fill in the blanks and still Call it a Zodiac and advertise Chris Heintz’s name. He believes that including the plans still makes it a 601XL even though the modifications were extensive. But he is willing to admit that he uses Chris Heintz Designs for the basis for his new airplane. Now lets see how honorable he is and if he builds Zodiac 601XL’s as designed by Chris or continues to sell his new design stealing from Zodiac 601XL plans.    

This really is a shame, I already know the answer, Chris believes that everyone should have the chance to build a plane that is why he provides the plans and Zenith offers builders support to plans builders. Chris was quite upset at the pictures I showed him earlier this week of Roberto’s plane, but his comment was simply “ I make it easy for them to sell against me” It is pretty sad when you think that he has to sell his product against several planes he has designed, but get small modifications. I hope this one more copy of a Zodiac doesn’t make the company decide to make there next designs a kit only or worst a QBK only. But it would make financial sense to not compete against your own design.  

   

Do not archive   

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

     

   

  

      	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron

	


  

--

 10/18/2006

  

  

--

 10/18/2006

     [quote][b]

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Roberato,  would you e-mail me some pict. of  your plane? I"ve never seen it.. By the way I have a set of plans with a  good number that I'll be glad to sell you at a ruduced price thanks . joe  N101HD

 [quote]   ---

gk(at)601hd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Mark,

 I dont  see where Roberto says that he will be selling anything.  -  Mind you,  my Portuguese is  pretty weak   

 Graham  Kirby

 601HD

  

 do not  archive

  

  --

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Whoa, Roberto



 I used no four-letter words. 



 What I did say was:



  	  Quote: 	
		  "I agree that anyone building an experimental may make changes, at his or her own risk. But to make a commercial copy of a Chris Heintz design is dishonest and  unethical. I hope that the Brazilians will not go forward with their copycat design. If they want to sell a kit, they should design one and sell it." 	


 My impression from your web site was that you intend to market your modified 601 in Brazil. If that impression is incorrect, then, as I stated, I have no problem with you making any changes whatever to the design and flying the result at your own risk. 



 However, if your intention is to sell plans, kits, or fully built planes of your modified design, then I again stand by my original statement, that I believe it is dishonest and unethical. And I hope you will change your mind. I do not speak Portuguese-if I have misinterpreted your intentions, I do apologize.



 I doubt I'll be able to make Oshkosh in '07, but maybe '08. If so, I would love to view your plane and discuss your design over a couple of beers.



 Terry



 

 At 09:44 PM 10/18/2006 -0200, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  To Mark Towsends, Terry Philips and so on,

  

 I didn't understand your criticism. You used a lot of four-letter words that do not reflect the events.

  	
 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44(at)rkymtn.net

     [quote][b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Roberto  

I commend you on your beautiful plane. I think it is nicest Zodiac modification I’ve ever seen. I understand that you have a serial number and you are free to do anything to your plane you want, but I believe that your modifications are extensive enough that your plane will need extensive testing to ensure it is safe to offer to the general public. In general the people on this list are experimenters, not entrepreneurs. Once you cross that line you have a different set of responsibilities. If you have deviated from Chris Heintz’ drawings with out his personal approval (regardless of whom you have retained in his place), and are calling it a 601XL, you are implying that it is his design. It may not have been your intention but, it appears that you are trying to use Chris Heintz’ reputation, and the reputation of his design, in order to sell your product. The concern is that any potential buyer would mistake your highly modified, and therefore untested/unproven design, with the reputation of the Chris Heintz approved version. In my opinion, it is irresponsible to suggest this in any way--explicitly or otherwise. I hope it is your intention to clear this up—and not to mislead your customers. I’m just some guy on the internet, and you may not care what I think, but you may want to consider whether others feel the same way.   

     

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Plans building.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds  

   

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE   

     

   

  

        

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito

 Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 6:45 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: A special Zodiac XL 601  

  

     

Hi Folks:  

    

   

    

Thanks a lot  for the compliments.  

    

   

    

   

    

To Mark Towsends, Terry Philips and so on,  

    

   

  

     [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron

[b]

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

On 10/18/06, Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    However, if your intention is to sell plans, kits, or fully built planes of

 your modified design, then ...


	


Roberto requires that anyone building his modified design purchase a

set of plans from CH and show proof of purchase. So, what if Roberto

were to --



a. Provides paid builder support for constructing the aircraft; and/or --



b. Market prefabricated parts (up to or including a complete "kit")



for the modified design. Would that be a breech of copyright or

contract? Would it be different if he were doing the same for the

unmodified design?



My suspicion is that, unless he publishes a derivative work of the **

plans **, he is clear of copyright violation. However, there may be

contractual issues that may attach to ownership of the plans that

prevent construction of a derivative design, or reverse engineering an

article constructed from the design, or whatever. Also, building a

business based on construction of modified plans may be considered _de

facto_ publication of a modified version of the plans. Does anyone

have the contract they signed with Zenith handy? What does it say or

not say? Any lawyers on this group know how these things go?



Just some thoughts. Again, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal

advice. Regards,



Ihab



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA



DO NOT ARCHIVE

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

I should add to my previous comments --



What I really would like to know is what CH's legal and business

structure for copies or modifications of his designs really is. His

indignation -- however heartfelt -- does not count. He is a successful

aircraft designer and the general "form" of his designs are classic

"patterns" (especially the CH701/801 series) that are hard to avoid

once you've seen them. Sort of like the similarities between the Piper

Cub and any of a number of other aircraft -- I'm not sure which came

first, but there are bezillions of Cub-like thingeys buzzing around.



Ihab

Sigmo(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Yes but they don't call their "Cub like thingies" a piper cub using Pipers  name to sell the thingies. If it's a thingie it needs to be called a  thingie.......

  

 My 2 cents worth.

 Mike Sigman

 N7092N 601XL

  [quote][b]

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Harmon Rocket

   

  do not archive



ihab.awad(at)gmail.com wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad(at)gmail.com



I should add to my previous comments --



What I really would like to know is what CH's legal and business

structure for copies or modifications of his designs really is. His

indignation -- however heartfelt -- does not count. He is a successful

aircraft designer and the general "form" of his designs are classic

"patterns" (especially the CH701/801 series) that are hard to avoid

once you've seen them. Sort of like the similarities between the Piper

Cub and any of a number of other aircraft -- I'm not sure which came

first, but there are bezillions of Cub-like thingeys buzzing  [quote][b]

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:59 am Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

Most of you know me well enough to know that I am the first person to stand up and applaud a builders ingenuity(  hell 601.org is full of them). A person who changes the plans to suit there own personal needs and desires is great and welcome. Even Chris himself is willing to review modifications to his plane and has quite often approved major modifications at no extra cost to the builder. I don’t know of any other designer who would allow changes to their designs never mind the fact that they would help a builder with design changes. But that is Chris and that is for builders that are building a plane for personal use. This is not the case with Roberto , it is his desire to become a Zenith dealer in Brazil and instead of going the proper route he is buying plans and building his plane for retail purposes. I have known of Roberto ever since he was sold his plans at Oshkosh and he has sent up pictures of his progress over the year of his plane and we even offered him advise as a builder. But I did not know up until recently that he is planning on selling his design and is using Chris Heintz’ s name to promote the plane as well as calling it a 601XL. IT is his intent to go into production of his design after the flight tests are done. That is why he has asked Zenith for many sets of plans of which his plane is based on.  I like Roberto and he is a nice guy but I am upset at his use of Chris Heintz Designs and name to sell his plane.   

   

   

     

Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario  

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started  

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com  

do not archive  

   

  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Kirby

 Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:37 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: A special Zodiac XL 601  

     

Mark,  

    

I dont see where Roberto says that he will be selling anything.  -  Mind you, my Portuguese is  pretty weak     

    

Graham Kirby  

    

601HD  

    

   

    

do not archive  

    

   

    

 --

lenabeto(at)uol.com.br
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: A special Zodiac XL 601

I sent to e-mail, I hope you like.

  

 Regards.

  

 Roberto Brito.



   [quote][b]

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