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cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

I've been flying for many years, and I'm currently part owner of a Cessna

182.  I also own a recreational vehicle which I love to travel in, around

the country.  But what I would really enjoy, is an airplane that I could

tow on a trailer behind my RV, stopping and flying wherever the scenery

looks interesting.  RVs seem to be towing every other kind of recreational

vehicle, these days, so why not an airplane?



Obviously such an aircraft would have to have folding wings, which is why

I've been looking at the Kolb Mark III Xtra.  It looks like Kolb aircraft

are designed for folding and trailering, while other folding wing designs

seem to have been included as an afterthought; more for taking up less

space in the hangar.  I also see lots of pictures of Kolb aircraft being

towed around on trailers; much more so than other aircraft.  Is there a

reason for this?



I also like the fact that the Kolb does not use a wet wing, thus there is

no need to drain the fuel before folding the wings.



Does anyone have any experience with extended trailering of the 701 behind

an RV?  If so, I would sure like to talk to you!



If anyone has any suggestions or advice on this topic, I'd sure appreciate

hearing from you.  Thanks!



Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

I tow my plane .  I used to tow it each time I flew...But now I only tow it 



Home for winter storage ( MN ) and then back to the hanger in Spring...



 I still fold it up after each flight , that way I get half price hanger rental.

.

.

.

 GottaFly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

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Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

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_________________
AzDave

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:13:49 -0700, Dave wrote:



[quote]

---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

It looks like Kolb aircraft

are designed for folding and trailering, while other folding wing designs

seem to have been included as an afterthought; >>



Hi Chris,



If folding wings are the most important consideration and it is available in 

the States try the `Escapade`. Sorry to be a traitor to the Kolb but 

compared to the Escapade the Kolb wing fold was designed by a retarded 5 

year old.

With the Escapade you can fold the wings, by yourself, without any trestles 

or supports in 2 minutes. No disconnect of controls. Ready to trailer away 

in 7 minutes.



I am not saying it is a better plane, after all I bought a Kolb, but for 

wing folding it has to be considered.



Pat



do not archive 



--

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

.  In fact, he recommended that the 701's wings be completely

 	  Quote: 	
		   removed before trailering.  Also, since the 701 has fuel tanks in the

 wings, the fuel has to be drained before folding the wings (or removing 

 the

 wings).


	


Seems like a real pain to me.  Also, I know some folding planes (Kitfox, I 

think) fold back without rotating the wings down.  This makes for faster 

folding but you need a really wide trailer to handle it.



And the 701 uses bolts, rather than clevis pins to secure the

 	  Quote: 	
		   wings, so the Kolb folds a little faster than the 701.


	


I don't think the speed of folding/unfolding is an issue - at least for me 

it isn't.  When you factor in the amount of time needed to drive to the 

airport, set up, etc.  a few minutes more or less for set up to me is 

immaterial.  What is important to me is whether or not it can be done by one 

person.



I plan on one hour from dropping the tail gate to taxiing.  That gives me 

time to get all the junk out of the trailer, remove all the tie downs, roll 

out the plane, remove all the security thingys I have for traveling, put the 

plane together, refuel, preflight, pee, then go flying.



 I've had some

 	  Quote: 	
		   sheet metal experience, which favors the all-metal 701, but it looks like

 fabric covering isn't that hard to learn.  And I hear it's cheap to 

 repair.


	


Fabric is real easy to repair.  Unfortunately, I'm real good at it.



AzDave

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


 	  Quote:

_________________
AzDave

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 10:54:56 +0100, Pat Ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Chris Wolf wrote:

>

> It looks like Kolb aircraft

>are designed for folding and trailering, while other folding wing designs

>seem to have been included as an afterthought; >>

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Chris,

If folding wings are the most important consideration and it is available in 

the States try the `Escapade`. Sorry to be a traitor to the Kolb but 

compared to the Escapade the Kolb wing fold was designed by a retarded 5 

year old.

With the Escapade you can fold the wings, by yourself, without any trestles 

or supports in 2 minutes. No disconnect of controls. Ready to trailer away 

in 7 minutes.

I am not saying it is a better plane, after all I bought a Kolb, but for 

wing folding it has to be considered.

Yes it does.  I have looked at the Escapade, along with the Rans Coyote and

Kitfox.  They all seem like fine planes, but they all fold their wings the

same way.  The wing breaks at the leading edge, next to the fuselage, and

simply swings back against the fuselage.  This certainly makes for quick

wing folding, and would be ideal for quick folding for hangar storage, but

it seems to have a couple of potential drawbacks for extended trailering.

First, the wings are still in their flying configuration.  If being carried

on an open trailer, a strong side gust of wind could easily generate a lot

of lift from the wing being struck.  The plane will end up being pulled up

and down at the same time.  I don't know if the forces involved are enough

to damage the plane, but I would hate to be the guy who finds out.

Second, and more important, the folded plane is going to be significantly

wider than a plane like the Kolb, where the wings fold flat against the

fuselage.  This would seem to require a wider trailer, which is bulkier and

more expensive.

I guess it comes down to which is more important; quick fold, or smaller

trailer.  Must think about this.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 07:50:43 -0700, Dave Pelletier wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Chris Wolf wrote:

>  In fact, he recommended that the 701's wings be completely

> removed before trailering.  Also, since the 701 has fuel tanks in the

> wings, the fuel has to be drained before folding the wings (or removing 

> the wings).

 	  Quote: 	
		  Seems like a real pain to me.

Yeah, that's my biggest complaint against the 701's folding wings.  The

fuel has to be drained before folding the wings.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Also, I know some folding planes (Kitfox, I 

think) fold back without rotating the wings down.  This makes for faster 

folding but you need a really wide trailer to handle it.

And the 701 uses bolts, rather than clevis pins to secure the

> wings, so the Kolb folds a little faster than the 701.

I don't think the speed of folding/unfolding is an issue - at least for me 

it isn't.  When you factor in the amount of time needed to drive to the 

airport, set up, etc.  a few minutes more or less for set up to me is 

immaterial.  What is important to me is whether or not it can be done by one 

person.

Good point.  I take it the Kolb can be folded (or unfolded) by just one

person?

Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

Chris,



But also don't lose sight of the fact the Escapade has a much smaller wing

than Kolb.  A smaller wing is easier to fold.  Smarter yet, make the wing

even smaller and you won't even need to fold it. Ray Stits flew a plane with

an 8 ft wing span - no folding required!



Dennis



--

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 03:00:16 -0400, Dennis Souder wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Chris,



But also don't lose sight of the fact the Escapade has a much smaller wing

than Kolb.  A smaller wing is easier to fold.  Smarter yet, make the wing

even smaller and you won't even need to fold it. Ray Stits flew a plane with

an 8 ft wing span - no folding required!


	


Indeed.  Planes can be flown with very small wings.  But they don't tend to

glide too well if the engine quits.  I understand the Zenith 701 comes down

at about a thousand feet per minute, unpowered.



Or you can fly a powered parachute, or powered paraglider, with a ram-air

parachute wing.  The ultimate folding wing.  Just stuff it in a bag!



Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On 10/15/06, Chris Wolf <cwolf41(at)comcast.net (cwolf41(at)comcast.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   

Good point.  I take it the Kolb can be folded (or unfolded) by just one

person? 	


Yes.  I do it every time I fly.  



Also, I've flown in a 701... nice plane and all, but the view -- especially at slow speeds -- sux big time... you have to look out the door to see anything in front of you. 



  -- Robert, MkIIIC/912ULS

  [quote][b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:34:25 -0500, Robert Laird wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >On 10/15/06, Chris Wolf <cwolf41(at)comcast.net> wrote:

>

> Good point.  I take it the Kolb can be folded (or unfolded) by just one

> person?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Yes.  I do it every time I fly.

Glad to hear that.  Another point in the Kolb's favor.  Does it really only

take about 15 minutes?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Also, I've flown in a 701... nice plane and all, but the view -- especially

at slow speeds -- sux big time... you have to look out the door to see

anything in front of you.

I've also flown in a 701, and I thought the view was pretty

decent.....until I got a look at the view from a Kolb.  For a flightseeing

airplane, the Kolb looks hard to beat.

Also, the 701 is a bit cramped when it comes to leg room.  Looks like

plenty of leg room on a Mark III Xtra.

Thanks for the info!

Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

Hi Chris,



the Kolb wingfold certainly makes for a narrow set up but have a good look 

at the amount of clearance between the leading edge and the ground. It is 

pretty close.



I don`t know how regular trailers deal with the tilt as the plane is pushed 

up a sloping tailgate. Although I am woefully short of practical experience 

in this area when the ground is rough I am very, very careful of the leading 

edge.



Good luck



Cheers



Pat 



--

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

Chris & Pat



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don`t know how regular trailers deal with the tilt as the plane is 

 pushed up a sloping tailgate. Although I am woefully short of practical 

 experience in this area when the ground is rough I am very, very careful 

 of the leading edge.



I have quite a bit of experience with this and you're correct Pat, the 
	


sloping tailgate is a problem.  I bought a heavy duty trailer jack that 

telescopes up and down and welded it on the trailer tongue.  I also cut off 

the handle and welded on a 5/8" nut.  When I'm ready to take out the plane, 

I let down the tailgate and telescope the jack down as far as I can.  Then I 

use my 18v drill with a 5/8" socket to raise the tongue.  The telescoping 

feature allows me to get the jack plate pretty close to the ground before I 

have to start cranking.  I can raise the tongue plenty high enough to 

minimize the angle between the tailgate and the floor so the wings won't hit 

when folded.



The brand name of the jack was "Bulldog" and I got it at a place that sells 

mostly horse trailers.



We are having an open house this weekend and i can take some pictures if 

you'd like.



AzDave



Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   --

_________________
AzDave

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

Unless you are working with a fairly flat apron area you will have to

create a device at the tailwheel that raises the rearend up at least

three feet to avoid blemishing the wings.



BB

On 16, Oct 2006, at 3:48 PM, pat ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Chris,



 the Kolb wingfold certainly makes for a narrow set up but have a good 

 look at the amount of clearance between the leading edge and the 

 ground. It is pretty close.



 I don`t know how regular trailers deal with the tilt as the plane is 

 pushed up a sloping tailgate. Although I am woefully short of 

 practical experience in this area when the ground is rough I am very, 

 very careful of the leading edge.



 Good luck



 Cheers



 Pat

 --

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:48:27 +0100, Pat Ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Chris,



the Kolb wingfold certainly makes for a narrow set up but have a good look 

at the amount of clearance between the leading edge and the ground. It is 

pretty close.


	


Yeah, about 3-4", or so I've been told, when the plane is sitting level.

Have to watch that.  Wouldn't take much to damage it.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I don`t know how regular trailers deal with the tilt as the plane is pushed 

up a sloping tailgate. Although I am woefully short of practical experience 

in this area when the ground is rough I am very, very careful of the leading 

edge.



Good luck



Cheers


	


Thanks, Pat.  I think I would build some sort of little rolling support

that I could slip around the fuselage pipe, just ahead of the tail, to

raise the leading edges clear of the ground.  Unless somebody has already

come up with a better idea.  Which wouldn't surprise me.



What we really need is a "kneeling trailer" that lowers the bed of the

trailer down to the ground, so there is no slope.  



Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:42:14 -0700, Dave Pelletier wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Chris & Pat

> I don`t know how regular trailers deal with the tilt as the plane is 

> pushed up a sloping tailgate. Although I am woefully short of practical 

> experience in this area when the ground is rough I am very, very careful 

> of the leading edge.

>

I have quite a bit of experience with this and you're correct Pat, the 

sloping tailgate is a problem.  I bought a heavy duty trailer jack that 

telescopes up and down and welded it on the trailer tongue.  I also cut off 

the handle and welded on a 5/8" nut.  When I'm ready to take out the plane, 

I let down the tailgate and telescope the jack down as far as I can.  Then I 

use my 18v drill with a 5/8" socket to raise the tongue.  The telescoping 

feature allows me to get the jack plate pretty close to the ground before I 

have to start cranking.  I can raise the tongue plenty high enough to 

minimize the angle between the tailgate and the floor so the wings won't hit 

when folded.

The brand name of the jack was "Bulldog" and I got it at a place that sells 

mostly horse trailers.

We are having an open house this weekend and i can take some pictures if 

you'd like.

I'd like very much to see them, Dave.  Thanks!

Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

cwolf41(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:55:23 -0400, Robert Bean wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Unless you are working with a fairly flat apron area you will have to

create a device at the tailwheel that raises the rearend up at least

three feet to avoid blemishing the wings.


	


Three feet?  That much?  Hmm.  Didn't realize it would take that much.

Guess it would be a good idea to get a trailer as low as possible.



Chris Wolf

cwolf41(at)comcast.net

Gene Ledbetter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

I've been fllying my firefly out of a trailer for 5 years and it is very easy to scrape the leading edge of the wings if the front of the trailer is not raised high enough.  Ask me how I know.

I put 4 X 4s under the tongue jack to maximize the tongue lift and this has worked for me.  You just need to be very careful the first time you load and unload to make sure you have clearance.



Gene Ledbetter



Firefly 447 360 hrs

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: Looking For A Plane To Trailer

I have seen photos of a Kolb trailer where it is designed to kneel. There 

are also a few of us that have carts like you are talking about for holding 

the wings. I have a custom trailer with a cart that I'm building that I'm 

planning to pull with my Toyota mini van that I will share with you when it 

is finished.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

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