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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

I wonder if the lesson of fuel starvation can be used to give us all 

a safer future.  Rather than focus on how much fuel we have before 

takeoff or making sure we constantly look at the boring fuel gauges 

it might be nice to look at the possibility of having electronics in 

our planes warn us if fuel is running low.  It seems even a few 

minutes warning of low fuel would be sufficient to find a 

satisfactory place to land.



I don't know what is available on the market today.  Perhaps other 

listers can tell us if there is a low cost and/or reasonable piece of 

equipment that can give a low fuel warning.  I know there are many 

fuel monitoring devices, but I don't know which are low enough in 

cost, dependable, and easy enough to use to be of great value.



What about the fancy new engine monitoring systems?  Do they provide 

low fuel alarms?



I hope anyone with knowledge or ideas on this question will speak up.



Paul

XL fuselage

-

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

In the Kitfox  They have a  one galon tank where the two wing tanks hoses joint, in the back side of the seat back,   This tank has a float switch with a light (and buzzer)  in the panel.   also  has a drain for the fuel there.

Will go on with about 10 minutes flying time left (given about 5 galon and hour in the 912 Rotax). 



Something similar can be made for the 701,  dont know how something can be designed in the low wing 601... .



Saludos

Gary Gower.



Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz 



I wonder if the lesson of fuel starvation can be used to give us all 

a safer future.  Rather than focus on how much fuel we have before 

takeoff or making sure we constantly look at the  boring fuel gauges 

it might be nice to look at the possibility of having electronics in 

our planes warn us if fuel is running low.  It seems even a few 

minutes warning of low fuel would be sufficient to find a 

satisfactory place to land.



I don't know what is available on the market today.  Perhaps other 

listers can tell us if there is a low cost and/or reasonable piece of 

equipment that can give a low fuel warning.  I know there are many 

fuel monitoring devices, but I don't know which are low enough in 

cost, dependable, and easy enough to use to be of great value.



What about the fancy new engine monitoring systems?  Do they provide 

low fuel alarms?



I hope anyone with knowledge or ideas on this question will speak up.



Paul

XL fuselage



	


   [quote][b]

Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Paul

 My RV is equipped with float switches that turn on a warning light on the  panel when there is about three gallons remaining. The switches are available  from Aircraft Spruce. They have a pivoting float with a magnet that closes a  reed switch when the float gets down to a certain point. I mounted them in the  ends of the tanks with weld able flanges. (Also aircraft spruce) However I did  not weld the flanges to the tanks. The flanges are wide enough that there was  plenty of room to drill and tap them and fastened them in with screws. I sealed  them in with Pro Seal.

 Aircraft Spruce also has an optical system for detecting a low fuel level.  It works (I think) by directing light into the fuel tank and looking for a  reflection. It was more expensive than the switches.

 I plan to use the same float switch system on my 601XL

 Carroll Jernigan

 XL Corvair

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Crvsecretary(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Hello Paul:

  

 I always enjoy your posts - keep them coming !

  

 Seems to me the only way a low fuel alarm would be any good is to  improve the quality of the signal being used to evaluate the amount of usuable  fuel available....simply put - better fuel level monitoring !   Since  we all agree the fuel gauges in most GA aircraft are damn near worthless, we  need to improve on the reliability of that signal (including the design of the  fuel tanks to minimize inaccuracies) before sounding any kind of  alarm.

  

 The best all-around answer seems to me to be a combination of  a VERY accurate fuel level monitor which works primarily on the ground to  determine fuel available at the start of flight, and then highly accurate  inflight monitoring of consumption, working it's way down to an alarm  status.  This seems to be suited perfectly to engine management  technology.

  

 Only my opinion - flame away !!

  

 Tracy Smith

 N458XL (reserved)

 Do Not Archive 

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/23/2006 2:02:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,  p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz    <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net>



I wonder if the lesson of fuel    starvation can be used to give us all 

a safer future.  Rather than    focus on how much fuel we have before 

takeoff or making sure we constantly    look at the boring fuel gauges 

it might be nice to look at the possibility    of having electronics in 

our planes warn us if fuel is running low.     It seems even a few 

minutes warning of low fuel would be sufficient to    find a 

satisfactory place to land.



I don't know what is available    on the market today.  Perhaps other 

listers can tell us if there is a    low cost and/or reasonable piece of 

equipment that can give a low fuel    warning.  I know there are many 

fuel monitoring devices, but I don't    know which are low enough in 

cost, dependable, and easy enough to use to    be of great value.



What about the fancy new engine monitoring    systems?  Do they provide 

low fuel alarms?



I hope anyone with    knowledge or ideas on this question will speak up.



Paul

XL    fuselage

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

becasue a plane can't sit stil ina X,Y,Z axis.  Fuel guages are historically unreliable.  The only thing I have seen work is a fuel flow meter which measures the use of engine.  So you the pilot can determine the fuel left based on the fuel burned.  Dynons and other EFIS systems offer the programs for it.  The best way is to be a pilot, not a driver.  Meaning we as pilots historically have been navigators and aviators that relyed on intuition and mathematic measurement to achieve successful flying trips.  There is no easy machine yelling "Bingo" in GA that is fuel starvation proof.  measure what fuel you put in, calculate your fuel burn and fly the flight plan.  that is the best approach, and deterance,  against dead sticking it for lack of fuel.



Juan



--

Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Paul

 I'm going to add one more picture. The two lights just below the fuel  indicators are the low fuel warning lights. The button between them is a "push  to test". The lights appear to be red in the picture but they are actually  orange.

 Carroll

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Hi Tracy,



 Thanks for the kind words.  



 I guess I should expand my original thoughts a little.



 First let me say I agree with the notion that fuel gauges are not accurate.  However, since we build our own planes we can adjust the senders to indicate what we want.  I chose to set mine so they were reasonably accurate on the empty side and not necessarily much use when the tanks are full.  Of course, I did this because I have much better ways to tell when the tanks are full - by removing the filler cap and looking.



 Even so, I know I don't spend a lot of time looking at the fuel gauges when flying.  Indeed, I don't look at any of the non-flight instruments unless something prompts me to look.  That is why I like the idea of electronics to watch the fuel quantity along with other boring stuff like oil temperature, alternator function, battery charge (HMMMMM, I wonder if this is available), CHT, EGT, and similar stuff.  I was just reading specifications for the Dynon monitoring system and it will do most of these things.  It seems well worth the price to me.  I would rather use my eyes to look for aluminum clouds.



 I have always depended on flight planning to insure sufficient fuel for any flight.  This is really easy if you know your plane holds 4 hours of fuel and your bladder is worthless after 2 hours.  A life long habit of filling the tanks for each flight works well with this scenario.  Still there is always the possibility of a fuel leak (or missing gas cap) spoiling your plan.  It would be nice for the instruments to jump up and down and say "Watch it chum, fuel is nearly gone."



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 



 

 At 04:53 PM 11/23/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]Hello Paul:

  

 I always enjoy your posts - keep them coming !

  

 Seems to me the only way a low fuel alarm would be any good is to improve the quality of the signal being used to evaluate the amount of usuable fuel available....simply put - better fuel level monitoring !   Since we all agree the fuel gauges in most GA aircraft are damn near worthless, we need to improve on the reliability of that signal (including the design of the fuel tanks to minimize inaccuracies) before sounding any kind of alarm.

  

 The best all-around answer seems to me to be a combination of a VERY accurate fuel level monitor which works primarily on the ground to determine fuel available at the start of flight, and then highly accurate inflight monitoring of consumption, working it's way down to an alarm status.  This seems to be suited perfectly to engine management technology.

  

 Only my opinion - flame away !!

  

 Tracy Smith

 N458XL (reserved)

 

 [b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

I believe the FAR's states that fuel senders are required to read  empty accurately it doesn't matter after that. Don't quote me on that  don't have the book in front of me.

  

 Do not archive

  [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Hello Carroll,



Great idea...  Do you have a part number,  or where to look at the ASpruce catalog?  as Float Switch?     Good idea, even if need to open a inspection window in the lower part of the wing to install it...  (plane already flying).



Just one question,  Does the normal gasoline movement in turbulence could switch it on before time?   Anyone already flying with them installed to ask?



The 701 is my first light plane that has no fisical gasoline level at eye sight from the cabin,  will like to improve this if possible... 

I always fly with lots of fuel, but a leak or carburator problem (or both)  can probably cut your range in half...



Saludos

Gary Gower.



Trainnut01(at)aol.com wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		       Paul

 My RV is equipped with float switches that turn on a warning light on the  panel when there is about three gallons remaining. The switches are available  from Aircraft Spruce. They have a pivoting float with a magnet that closes a  reed switch when the float gets down to a certain point. I mounted them in the  ends of the tanks with weld able flanges. (Also aircraft spruce) However I did  not weld the flanges to the tanks. The flanges are wide enough that there was  plenty of room to drill and tap them and fastened them in with screws. I sealed  them in with Pro Seal.

 Aircraft Spruce also has an optical system for detecting a low fuel level.  It works (I think) by directing light into the fuel tank and looking for a  reflection. It was more expensive than the switches.

 I plan to use the same  float switch system on my 601XL

 Carroll Jernigan

 XL Corvair

	




  [quote][b]

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

I think you are right about that….  

   

Tommy Walker in Alabama  

Do Not Archive  

    	  Quote: 	
		  I believe the FAR's states that fuel senders are required to read  empty       accurately it doesn't matter after that. Don't quote me on that  don't have the            book in front of me.            Do not archive      



 	
  

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Gary

 The ACS part # for the float switch is 6905-400. The flange I used to mount  it is AN867-4. I used the panel lights that ACS recommended because I liked the  way they looked but a LED could easily be substituted, and as Paul said a LED  would be cheaper and more reliable. I still like the "press to test" feature. I  sold the RV before it was completed so I don't know how well it is working. I  did test the system when the wing tanks were being tested and it worked  perfectly. I do suspect that there might be some premature flashing with reduced  fuel load in turbulence, but then that's a warning too.

 On my 601 I plan to install the sensors further back in the tank because I  think the warning lights might come on during flare with them mounted as far  forward as they are in the RV. As soon as the new owner finishes flying off the  hours he's going to let me get some time in it, so I'll know more then.

 Carroll

  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

probably a red warning light when the tanks hit 1/4 full?



Juan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

you can also dial in on the VOR or other channel on the AWAS of airports up ahead.



JUan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

I used to fly a small GA aircraft with 1/4 tank warning and after one bumpy flight I was ready to shoot the plane.  every bump was a beep one hour even with 3/4 tanks.   I live in an area with lots of convective activity.  What I found is that the very expesnive models that jets use work in level air.  



Jaun



--

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Paul, 

 I have the low fuel limit on my Grand Rapids EIS  (Engine Instrumentation System) set to Flash a caution light when I reach 5 U.S.  gaL  I have a fuel fuel turbine installed and providing data to the EIS ,  and it is pretty accurate.  The only time I have the caution light go off  was when I forget to reset gallons on board in the EIS when I  refueled.

  

 Of course this measures only what is being supplied  to the engine.  Any leak before the fuel flow turbine is not counted.   I always double check my sump valves to make sure they are not  leaking.

  

 One concern I did have was the location of the  gascolator on the bottom of the fuselage, especially since I do not have wheel  fairings.  I installed a removable FOD shield around the gascolator shaped  like an airfoil but with access to still sump the gascolator before  flight.  If I ever do have a foreign object thrown by the nose  wheel toward the gascolator, hopefully the shield will deflect  it, preventing potential damage with possible loss of  fuel.

  

 Tony Graziano

 601XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 175 hrs

 -----

 From: Paul  Mulwitz <[url=]p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net[/url]>

Subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

I wonder if the  lesson of fuel starvation can be used to give us all 

a safer future.   Rather than focus on how much fuel we have before 

takeoff or making sure we  constantly look at the boring fuel gauges 

it might be nice to look at the  possibility of having electronics in 

our planes warn us if fuel is running  low.  It seems even a few 

minutes warning of low fuel would be  sufficient to find a 

satisfactory place to land.



I don't know what is  available on the market today.  Perhaps other 

listers can tell us if  there is a low cost and/or reasonable piece of 

equipment that can give a low  fuel warning.  I know there are many 

fuel monitoring devices, but I  don't know which are low enough in 

cost, dependable, and easy enough to use  to be of great value.



What about the fancy new engine monitoring  systems?  Do they provide 

low fuel alarms?



I hope anyone with  knowledge or ideas on this question will speak up.



Paul

XL  fuselage



   [quote][b]

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Just thought of something that happened to me recently and thought it pertinent.

Several months ago I sold my Pacer and delivered it from Houston to Orlando, arrived at the buyers airpark and parked the plane in his NICE hanger while we went to dinner, upon return discovered 16 gal of 100ll had been dumped on his floor due to a gascolator that had chosen this time to split. Unit was about 4 yrs old. Central Fla has a LOT of trees and I had just flown over most of them. 

Gas gauges are not famous for accuracy or reliability but they sure as hell wouldn't have been BORING as someone mentioned if they had suddenly started falling.

No matter how well you prepare and plan ,nasty things happen sometimes. Hopefully by employing the 7  "P" rule the frequency stays low.    (Proper preperation probably prevents piss poor performance.)

LOW&SLOW   John Bolding

Wingrider

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Tullahoma, TN

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Low Fuel Alarm.

Carroll

Can you tell me if the float switch 6905-400 you used has both NO and NC contacts? I'm thinking of using one as a high fuel level switch to shut off the transfer pump to the center tank when it's full.



Maybe two switches the one above to turn off the pump, and a second low level switch to turn on the transfer pump.

_________________
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS
Corvair 3 Liter 120HP

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

A cheap alarm will be to drink a Pepsi or a Coke before every flight... Our blader alarm will prevent us from running out of fuel     



Saludos

Gary  Gower

Do not archive.



Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote:[quote]   Hi Tracy,



 Thanks for the kind words.  



 I guess I should expand my original thoughts a little.



 First let me say I agree with the notion that fuel gauges are not accurate.  However, since we build our own planes we can adjust the senders to indicate what we want.  I chose to set mine so they were reasonably accurate on the empty side and not necessarily much use when the tanks are full.  Of course, I did this because I have much better ways to tell when the tanks are full - by removing the filler cap and looking.



 Even so, I know I  don't spend a lot of time looking at the fuel gauges when flying.  Indeed, I don't look at any of the non-flight instruments unless something prompts me to look.  That is why I like the idea of electronics to watch the fuel quantity along with other boring stuff like oil temperature, alternator function, battery charge (HMMMMM, I wonder if this is available), CHT, EGT, and similar stuff.  I was just reading specifications for the Dynon monitoring system and it will do most of these things.  It seems well worth the price to me.  I would rather use my eyes to look for aluminum clouds.



 I have always depended on flight planning to insure sufficient fuel for any flight.  This is really easy if you know your plane holds 4 hours of fuel and your bladder is worthless after 2 hours.  A life long habit of filling the tanks for each flight works well with this scenario.  Still there is always the possibility of a fuel leak (or missing  gas cap) spoiling your plan.  It would be nice for the instruments to jump up and down and say "Watch it chum, fuel is nearly gone."



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 



 

 At 04:53 PM 11/23/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]Hello Paul:

  

 I always enjoy your posts - keep them coming !

  

 Seems to me the only way a low fuel alarm would be any good is to improve the quality of the signal being used to evaluate the amount of usuable fuel available....simply put - better fuel level monitoring !   Since we all agree the fuel gauges in most GA aircraft are damn near worthless, we need to improve on the reliability of that signal (including the design of the fuel tanks to minimize inaccuracies) before sounding any kind of alarm.

  

 [b]The best all-around answer seems to me to be a combination of a VERY accurate fuel level monitor which works primarily  [quote][b]

Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

Rich

 No. It only has one set of contacts. But if it was mounted high in the tank  it would turn off when the fuel level rose above it. It could also be inverted  to turn on when the fuel level reaches it. Not sure what that would be good  for unless you wanted a full tank warning.

 Carroll Jernigan

 Lenoir City TN

  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: Low Fuel Alarm.

This is an optical  low fuel sensor sold by Pillar Point Avionics:

  

 www.ppavionics.com/LFL.htm 

  

 They also use the same sensor in a system  which automatically transfers fuel from wing tanks to a header  tank.

  

 Aircraft Spruce sells a similar system made  by Aircraft Extras:

  

 www.aircraftextras.com/FuelSensor1.htm

  

 -- Craig

   [quote][b]

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