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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Given my previous experience,  if the builder has the space (fortunate I have plenty), is better to build first the fuselage. 

 The good part about this is that mean time we are building the flying surfaces  we can work on the most time consuming parts that get the builder desparate at the end of the project: this are (for me) the Instrument panel,  the electric system  and the engine instalation.   

This way there is the chance to work in several tasks,  given the material we have,  no way to get bored in a single task that takes lots of time... 

Also we can put some visitors to work (there is always a friend visiting to the shop at least twice a week) in some easy task they can do, while we work in another one,  just keep an eye to prevent errors.

taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Building wings or fuselage first  ????? Some folks drive me up the wall because they have to get their "2 cents worth" in no matter what.  Especially when the answer calls for a opinion. The tread was:

  

 Person "A", asked if he should build his wings without slats.--------- Jon C. wrote and told him, he should build the fuselage first.--------- Mark T. wrote and told him, he should build the wings first and the reasons why.------ IMPORTANT HERE IS THE FACT--- JON C. AND MARK T. HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER--- I believe,  their bussiness' compliment each other.-------- I wrote I agreed with Mark T. and said what Chris H. said in one of his early construction manuals---------- Jon C. wrote in that Mark's reasons made sence.------Person "A" wrote back, saying he was going to build his wings first-------------- I take my hat off to that gentleman-------- He asked a question, got two different answers to his question and he made his decision,   all in about 2 to 3 days.  PERSON "A" POSTED HIS DECISION------- I would have thought this would have  ended this thread, but NO other folks have to try to keep it going--------- Anyone can build their airplane in any sequence they want.  Chris H. has his reasons, Jon C., Mark T., you and I all have our reasons--------- If sitting in the fuselage and "playing" hanger pilot are more important than building the wings and being able to store them "up" out of the way, than go for it.

 Fritz

 ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Yes, people, including myself, got our $.02 in. That is what the list is for. If you don't want folk's $.02 I would strongly recommend that you don't post to or read a public forum that is specifically designed to get a whole lot of people's $.02 so the outcome will be worth more than $.02.



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

cj.tremblay(at)videotron.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Hi,  

   

I disagree with you when you say “It makes absolutely no logical sense to build the wings first.”  

   

Depending on model, it could make more sense to build wing first than fuselage. The CH640 is an example. If you do fuselage before wings, it could be more difficult, if not feasible,  due to restricted access when the fuselage is completed, to fit wing spars to center fuselage spar. Specially if your project is from plan, you don’t have any hole pre-drilled like many kit plane have.   

   

But I agree with you, build fuselage before wings could be more fun… and give perception plane more tangible. Depending on model and also builder, opinion and situation vary.  The world is never white or black.  

   

     

Christian Tremblay  

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan  

http://www.zodiac640.com/  

  

         

  

De : owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Big Gee

 Envoyé : Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:04 PM

 À : zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Objet : Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!  

  

       

YOU GUYS DRIVE ME UP THE WALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    

----- Original Message ----

 From: LRM <lrm(at)skyhawg.com>

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:38:42 PM

 Subject: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!    

It makes absolutely no logical sense to build the wings first.  However, it really doesn't matter which one you build first, if you follow the plans all parts will fit together.  If Chris really said "do the wings first as it was easier to build the fuselage to fit the wings, than to try and build the wings to fit the fuselage.", then there is a problem with his plans.  Jon's rationale for building the fuselage first is simply a matter of self encouragement.  If you have a fuselage sitting there on landing gear so you can sit in it, roll it around, it gives you more incentive to keep building.  The hard part is done.   I built my fuselage first and my wings (PegaStol) bolted right up, zero problem.  No matter what you build, you normally build the core first.  Seems to me that one would want to build parts to fit the frame not the frame to fit the parts.    

    

   

    

Just me 2 cents worth for what it's worth, Larry N1345L www.skyhawg.com  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

--

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

O.K. Since everybody else got their 2 cents in, I'll throw in mine. Whichever part you start on, whether you prime or not, whether you put on slats or VG's, whichever color of scotchbrite you use; always drill the holes before you try to rivet.



Steve Adams

CH640

Do not archive

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

The subject matter states "For 701 builders ONLY -  everyone else - look away!"  You could be right about a 640, I don't know,  we weren't talking about 640s and I know nothing about them.

 All in all I don't think it really matters  what you build first on a 701, it should all fit together.  But for Chris  or anyone to say the wings should or must be built first, I take exception  to.  My opinion is that one should start with the center and  build out.  And I stick by my statement, “It makes absolutely no logical  sense to build the wings first.”  That applies to a 701 only.  Now if  you or someone can give me a good logical reason why the wings should be  built first, I will certainly think about it and admit it if I am wrong.   However, having built four aircraft, one being a 701 and currently advising  three other local 701 builders as an EAA Technical Advisor, I don't see  that rationale of building the wings first forth coming.   Two of the  my builders have their fuselages built and are working on wings, they are  scratch builders.  The third is building his wings first from the  kit.  

  

 Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com

  

  

 

   

 ---

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Steve,

 I don't drill my holes, I punch them out.               just kidding

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  

  

 In a message dated 12/14/06 07:52:56 Eastern Standard Time, dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com writes:

 [quote]   .aolmailheader          {font-size:8pt; color:black; font-family:Arial} a.aolmailheader:link    {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:active  {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:hover   {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal}   

  [quote][b]

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Larry,

  

 The only thing that I can think of is it would be a lot easier adjusting the cage of the fuselage to meet the spars of the wings, then the other way around. I have two questions for you, Have you got her up in the air yet? How is your GroundHawg coming?

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX  CH701/912S/91hrs 

  

 do not archive

  

  

  

 In a message dated 12/14/06 09:31:55 Eastern Standard Time, lrm(at)skyhawg.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   All in all I don't think it really matters what you build first on a 701, it should all fit together.  But for Chris or anyone to say the wings should or must be built first, I take exception to.  My opinion is that one should start with the center and build out.  And I stick by my statement, â€œIt makes absolutely no logical sense to build the wings first.â€  That applies to a 701 only.  Now if you or someone can give me a good logical reason why the wings should be built first, I will certainly think about it and admit it if I am wrong.  

	
  

  [quote][b]

taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Larry, I would say that your post "proves" that EAA Technical aren't always right.  Nor should folks think that just because an individual is an EAA Tech. that he is right all the time..  Especially when recommending things which contradict the designer.  Isn't following the procedures as layed out in the Construction Manual  logical reason enough ???

  

 What does it take to be an "authority" on this site anyways ?????

 Fritz

 ---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Fritz:

  I have sat here and read your posts and all I can think is your head  is so far up Chris's azz that you can't take a breath and you are not thinking  clearly due to lack of o2. One example of not having to follow the designer is  this: When we build a Van's RV we build the fuselage upside down and I intend to  build my 2nd 601 that way, so is this right or wrong? Is Van's or Chris right or  do we as builders have the right to do what ever the hell we want. It sounds to  me like you need to get out of the experimental stuff and move over to certified  then you can truly be happy and after all that is what we all want for you  here.

  

 do not archive

  

  

  

 In a message dated 12/14/2006 12:09:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,  taffy0687(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Larry,    I would say that your post "proves" that EAA Technical aren't always    right.  Nor should folks think that just because an individual is an EAA    Tech. that he is right all the time..  Especially when recommending    things which contradict the designer.  Isn't following the procedures as    layed out in the Construction Manual  logical reason enough ???

    

   What    does it take to be an "authority" on this site anyways ?????

   Fritz

   -----    Original Message ----

From: LRM <lrm(at)skyhawg.com>

To:    zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:26:24    AM

Subject: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look    away!



         The subject matter states "For 701 builders ONLY    - everyone else - look away!"  You could be right about a 640, I don't    know, we weren't talking about 640s and I know nothing about  them.

   All in all I don't think it really matters    what you build first on a 701, it should all fit together.  But for Chris    or anyone to say the wings should or must be built first, I take exception    to.  My opinion is that one should start with the center and    build out.  And I stick by my statement, â€œIt makes absolutely no logical    sense to build the wings first.â€  That applies to a 701 only.  Now    if you or someone can give me a good logical reason why the wings should    be built first, I will certainly think about it and admit it if I am    wrong.  However, having built four aircraft, one being a 701 and    currently advising three other local 701 builders as an EAA Technical    Advisor, I don't see that rationale of building the wings first forth    coming.   Two of the my builders have their fuselages built and are    working on wings, they are scratch builders.  The third is building his    wings first from the kit.  

    

   Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

 	  lrm(at)skyhawg.com wrote: 	
		  The subject matter states "For 701 builders ONLY -  everyone else - look away!"  You could be right about a 640, I don't know,  we weren't talking about 640s and I know nothing about them.

   

 --- 	




Whoa. Sorry to rustle your feathers. I thought recommending drilling before riveting would be about the least controversial thing I could say.

taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Afterfxllc,  As I said before, anyone can build their airplane the way they want.  Both Larry and you read part of a post,  then act like an "Authority" and can't wait to jump on someone else.

 Seeing that Chris Heintz and William Wynne aren't considered "Authorities" by some on this site,  

 I'll ask you the same question I asked Larry.----  What does it take to be an "Authority" ?

  

  Happy Building,

 Fritz

  

 



 

 ---

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

I can't believe you folks have missed *the* most important part of

this discussion --



On 12/11/06, Jon Croke <Jon(at)joncroke.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   ... they both (wings and fuse) have to be completed before flying, ...


	


What Jon is trying to tell you all is that, in his videos, he explains

not just the ORDER in which the parts need to be completed, but also

WHICH ones need to be completed. He's gone on record saying you need

wings, fuse and (in a different thread) slats. But buy his video and

you may find out you can skip the noisy, dirty, superfluous engine,

and replace it with some easy glue-on "slipstream generators". Imagine

the cost savings! Or maybe the wheels -- could *they* be eliminated

and replaced by some simple plastic "runway guides"? Well, you'll just

have to buy Jon's video, now won't you? So do yourselves a favor, put

your time to good use, and order that video. You won't regret it.



Ihab



DO NOT ARCHIVE



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

I guess you have to self proclaimed.... We are all Authorities when it  comes to our own aircraft and it's guys like you that hinder aviation not help  it. the Van's aircraft is IMHO is far better than the zenith but they are both  good aircraft and I'm sure others will develop different designs in the future.  That is the beauty of Experimental. Another example is the barbed hose fittings  Chris uses for his kits I think they are junk and won't use them, am I wrong?  90% of aircraft built use aluminum tubing. But you just keep preaching against  people wanting to improve their airplane as they see fit we will listen but  for most on this list I'm sure we wanted to get rid of your type attitude  when we sold our cessna's. 

  

  

 In a message dated 12/14/2006 2:26:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,  taffy0687(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Afterfxllc,     As I said before, anyone can build their airplane the way they want.     Both Larry and you read part of a post,  then act like an "Authority" and    can't wait to jump on someone else.

   Seeing    that Chris Heintz and William Wynne aren't considered "Authorities" by some on    this site,  

   I'll    ask you the same question I asked Larry.----  What does it take    to be an "Authority" ?

    

    Happy    Building,

   Fritz

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

I don't like to toot my own horn, but since you put  me on the spot, I guess I need to answer the questions.  I don't want you  or anyone to label me as a blowhard who doesn't know what he's talking  about.  Please don't take this as being pompous, I don't mean it that  way.

  

 I have built 4 aircraft, one of which was a grand  champion, a second would have been but I didn't get to enter it.   There is also a good possibility my current 701 will stand a good chance of  being a grand champion at the next Sun N Fun.  If everything goes right I  will be there and enter it.  I have built around 15+ frame up show cars,  one of which one was on the cover of Hot Rod Magazine.  I have enough  trophies to start my on trophy shop.  I am an inventor, I hold one U.S.  Patent and have another one pending.  I designed and marketed the "Bad  Stab" and "Ultimate Stab".  Those are horizontal stabilizers for RAF 2000  gyroplanes. I sold well over 100 in almost every state and all over  the world, Russia, Japan, Germany and more.  I have been building  things all my life.  I do every little bit of my own building except the  sewing, including the complete paint jobs.  Yes, some might consider me an  "authority".  It doesn't really matter to me.  I just try and  pass on my experience.  And, I am certainly not always right, but neither  is Chris.  Anyone who thinks he or anyone is always right is  misguided.  There is nothing in it for me being a Technical Advisor  other than self satisfaction of helping fellow builders.    

  

 If you want to or have to follow the instructions  to the letter, have at it.  There are some people who can't think out of  the box, and that's ok, it takes all kinds to make this old world go  around.  You asked, " Isn't  following the procedures as laid out in the Construction Manual  logical  reason enough ???".  No it certainly is not.  I did not/do not agree  with the progression of building components in the Zenith manual, that's why I  didn't follow it.  That manual is/was full of errors and omissions.   Maybe it's improved by now, but mine certainly needed help.  Of course I  can't fuss too much, I wouldn't want to try and write one.  Producing  an instruction manual is really a difficult thing to do.   At one  point in my professional career I wrote technical manuals for IBM.  On that  subject I am definitely an authority.  Overall, even with it's errors and  omissions,  the Zenith instruction manual is the best one I have  used.  Some of them are really sorry.  The PegaStol manual was the  worst one I have ever seen.  The new owner is using a lot of information on  my site and rewriting it.  

  

  

 One last  thought and I've said this before, "There is nothing, absolutely nothing that  cannot be improved".

  

 End of discussion!!!!!!!!!!

  

  

 Larry N1345L, www.skyhawg.com

  

    

  

  

  

 ---

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

Impressive credentials Larry. I'm sure the aircraft you build are impecable and the builders lucky enough to have your guidance benefit greatly and are quite lucky. Unfortunately many of us do not have the same knowledge and experience as you, and often times get conflicting "expert advise" without a definite knowledge of which source is more credible. Not to say that Chris is perfect, his designs are perfect, or that the construction manuals are perfect. However, I don't think anyone could question his knowledge of aircraft design and track record as a designer. As you said, there is absolutely nothing that can't be improved. Unfortunately, I have read of too many "improvements" made by well meaning, but misguided, builders that have ended in crumpled aluminum and worse. I'm sure there are many builders with knowledge and experience similar to your own who make many viable improvements to the original designs, construction methods, and materials. However, the beauty of Experimental aircraft and the currently available kits is that virtually anyone, regardless of experience or prior knowledge, can build a safe, economical, well designed and performing aircraft. Most of us are not experts. As such, the best way for us to safely build an aircraft is to look to the designer of the aircraft as the defacto expert in constructing his design. It may not result in a perfect airplane, but in doing it this way, it will also not result in fatally flawed final product. Wave the "experimental" banner, do whatever you think will make your airplane better, but don't berate those of us in this simply for the joy of building a proven, safe, fun, well designed airplane the way it was designed.



Steve Adams

CH640

cj.tremblay(at)videotron.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!

I agree with your opinion Steeve. Only good sense.



Christian Tremblay

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan

http://www.zodiac640.com/



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de steveadams

Envoyé : Friday, December 15, 2006 8:03 AM

À : zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!






Impressive credentials Larry. I'm sure the aircraft you build are impecable

and the builders lucky enough to have your guidance benefit greatly and are

quite lucky. Unfortunately many of us do not have the same knowledge and

experience as you, and often times get conflicting "expert advise" without a

definite knowledge of which source is more credible. Not to say that Chris

is perfect, his designs are perfect, or that the construction manuals are

perfect. However, I don't think anyone could question his knowledge of

aircraft design and track record as a designer. As you said, there is

absolutely nothing that can't be improved. Unfortunately, I have read of too

many "improvements" made by well meaning, but misguided, builders that have

ended in crumpled aluminum and worse. I'm sure there are many builders with

knowledge and experience similar to your own who make many viable

improvements to the original designs, construction methods, and materials.

However, the beauty of Expe!

 rimental aircraft and the currently available kits is that virtually

anyone, regardless of experience or prior knowledge, can build a safe,

economical, well designed and performing aircraft. Most of us are not

experts. As such, the best way for us to safely build an aircraft is to look

to the designer of the aircraft as the defacto expert in constructing his

design. It may not result in a perfect airplane, but in doing it this way,

it will also not result in fatally flawed final product. Wave the

"experimental" banner, do whatever you think will make your airplane better,

but don't berate those of us in this simply for the joy of building a

proven, safe, fun, well designed airplane the way it was designed.



Steve Adams

CH640





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