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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring and designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the door is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)itecusa.org
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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I would say that it is quite useful. If/When somebody else ever flies your plane, they won’t understand how important it is (no matter how you stress it) to check the back of the doors. Seeing the lights on, though, will automatically let them know that something is wrong. Ask me how I know!
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:40 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: door latched security system
I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring and designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the door is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
[quote] [b]
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ScooterF15
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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I installed all 4 magnetic switches and connected them in series to my Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 engine monitor. Part of my checklist is to ensure the doors are closed both manually and by ensuring the "DOORS" indicator is extinguished on the display. If I forget, it gives an audible warning "CANOPY" when the RPM exceeds 1500. Hearing that would be a good reason to abort a takeoff.
I'm happy with the way it works. I set the magnets just right: the system caught a passenger who had properly engaged the door latch, but had not locked the handle all the way down. Overall, it was easy because of my engine monitoring system, however, I wasn't very interested in wiring up that relay system they sent.
I used one of the unused warning lights as a stall warning light. I'd noticed Van's had done that in N220RV. The light sits directly over my PFD and comes on along with the supplied stall buzzer.
Jim
40134
In a message dated 12/18/2006 8:46:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:
| Quote: | I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring and designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the door is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
|
Jim "Scooter" McGrew
http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew
[quote][b]
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flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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I would most definitely recommend it. Vans door warning is very sensitive and warns you if the door latch is even SLIGHTLY moved out of it's engagement position.
do not archive
Rob Kermanj
On Dec 18, 2006, at 8:39 PM, David McNeill wrote:
| Quote: | I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring and designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the door is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
|
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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Can someone explain what happened when the door was not latched correctly.
What did the door do? What did the plane do?
JOhn G.
| Quote: | From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: door latched security system
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:21:40 -0500
I would say that it is quite useful. If/When somebody else ever flies your
plane, they won't understand how important it is (no matter how you stress
it) to check the back of the doors. Seeing the lights on, though, will
automatically let them know that something is wrong. Ask me how I know!
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:40 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: door latched security system
I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible
RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light
system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified
system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For
flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its
usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the wiring and
designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when the
door
is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
|
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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the door departed the aircraft on takeoff and the aircraft was flown around
the pattern and landed. Very little damage as I understand it and the door
was returned to the aircraft. The Van's kit was distributed to builders and
installed on said aircraft. My understanding was the lights worked as
advertised but the pilot took off again and lost the door again. My guess is
that the door is warped and difficult to insert the rear latch pin;
apparently extends outside the door frame. Perhaps someone else has more
info?
---
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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What happens is this:
The RV-10 doors are ok, but a bit flimsy and there is no rear
handle. So with the handle forward on the door, you pull it
in to shut it, and the front pin slides forward nicely. Often
though, you will see RV-10's with chips in the fiberglass
behind the aft pin. This is because the rear of the door
isn't pulled in as tightly and someone tried to engage
the pins (push the door handle forward). So what happens is
the pin goes not through the airframe, but chips the paint
on the outside of the plane and the pin is left sticking on
the outside of the plane, where it is useless. Worse than
that, there's now nothing holding the door from blowing
aft. So the plane takes off and the door rips itself from
the plane, or breaks the hinges.
I have heard that there have been 5 incidents so far. I know
for sure that one was a person on this list with a silver
plane, and one was a plane up here by me (not me). I don't
know who the others are.
So vans came out with a warning light kit that would be
a good idea to install...although not foolproof. No matter
what, the door pin check should be done after every single
entry/exit, and should be ingrained as part of your
preflight.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
| Quote: |
Can someone explain what happened when the door was not latched
correctly. What did the door do? What did the plane do?
JOhn G.
> From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>
> Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: door latched security system
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:21:40 -0500
>
> I would say that it is quite useful. If/When somebody else ever flies
> your
> plane, they won't understand how important it is (no matter how you
> stress
> it) to check the back of the doors. Seeing the lights on, though, will
> automatically let them know that something is wrong. Ask me how I know!
>
> Do not archive.
>
> Jesse Saint
>
> I-TEC, Inc.
>
> jesse(at)itecusa.org
>
> www.itecusa.org
>
> Cell: 352-427-0285
>
> Fax: 815-377-3694
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:40 PM
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: door latched security system
>
> I spoke with Vans this week and discussed the latching system and the
> warning lights. They indicated that the two incidents of the convertible
> RV10 both occurred on the same airplane before and then after the light
> system was installed. I am debating whether to install a Vans modified
> system or just depend on the checklist and physical feel of the pins. For
> flying 10s: have you installed the warning light system? Opinion of its
> usefulness? For building 10s: are you installing? I have run the
> wiring and
> designed a simpler system whereby a light for each side is red when
> the door
> is unlatched (without all the automotive reversing relays).
>
>
|
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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This is not good news that this happened, but for me it is good news to know
that the door does break away from the airframe while in flight and that the
plane still flies dispite the huge hole in the side of the airframe.
Why do I care? My desire to have everyone wearing a parachutte. Nice to
know the door may not clamshell and scissor you to death on exit, but one
never knows the behavior of the plane in such an emergency.
It sounds to me that rather than design a light, a new latch needs to be
designed.
One more thing to think about when I get there, unless someone beats me to
it. Three point latch with the bottom one sucking in the door (Friction
latch) to allow the fore and aft pins to engage the frame.
Thanks,
John
[quote]From: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: door latched security system
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:19:19 -0700
the door departed the aircraft on takeoff and the aircraft was flown around
the pattern and landed. Very little damage as I understand it and the door
was returned to the aircraft. The Van's kit was distributed to builders and
installed on said aircraft. My understanding was the lights worked as
advertised but the pilot took off again and lost the door again. My guess
is that the door is warped and difficult to insert the rear latch pin;
apparently extends outside the door frame. Perhaps someone else has more
info?
---
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jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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On the story that I "heard through the grape vine" A door opened on takeoff
because the rear pin was not in. The Lord was merciful and the door did not
actually depart the aircraft when it flew open, but one of the hinges broke
and part of the fiberglass was damaged. It was at an airport away from
home, so the door was closed on the ground with the pins, even with the
broken hinge, and flown home without any trouble. The hinges were replaces,
the fiberglass fixed, and now it is fine. That plane now has another
security mechanism that is not pretty, but is very functional that will not
allow the door to come open even if the latches are not latched. I see a
request for pictures coming...if I get a chance to ask this "hypothetical
person" about this "hypothetical plane" to get some "hypothetical pictures",
I will post them. Oh, btw, it was N256H being flown by a pilot who was not
the owner and it happened in Pensacola, FL. I hear it gets very windy very
fast.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
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LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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In a message dated 12/19/06 11:54:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com writes:
| Quote: | It sounds to me that rather than design a light, a new latch needs to be
designed.
One more thing to think about when I get there, unless someone beats me to
it. Three point latch with the bottom one sucking in the door (Friction
latch) to allow the fore and aft pins to engage the frame.
|
YES!! that is new thinking. EVERY RV-10 i have seen has the outside paint chipped next to the poorly designed pin latch. Who is an engineer out there, design a part for 500+ customers!! x 2 doors.
Do not archive
Steve
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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No aft handle? Paint chipped? Those are things of the past…for some. This aft handle and these stainless plates make a big difference. The latch system is very functional (although ugly), but the problem comes in when you pull on the front part of a fairly flimsy door and the aft pin misses. Having the aft handle makes a HUGE difference in getting the door closed. Also, the strike plates also help if the door pins are part of the way out with the door open and the door falls/closes (am I the only one that has had problems with some of the shocks being too weak to hold the doors?).
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:58 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: door latched security system
In a message dated 12/19/06 11:54:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com writes:
| Quote: |
It sounds to me that rather than design a light, a new latch needs to be
designed.
One more thing to think about when I get there, unless someone beats me to
it. Three point latch with the bottom one sucking in the door (Friction
latch) to allow the fore and aft pins to engage the frame. |
YES!! that is new thinking. EVERY RV-10 i have seen has the outside paint chipped next to the poorly designed pin latch. Who is an engineer out there, design a part for 500+ customers!! x 2 doors.
Do not archive
Steve
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Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
shells?
Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
add some weight to the doors.
Vern (#324 fuselage)
--
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: door latched security system |
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I don't think the 'flimsyness' of the doors is related to their stucture
per se, (There is some reinforcement vis a glass matt that 'locks' the
doors internally) but rather to the manner in which they are attached to
the Cabin Cover. they are attached with 2 hinges that are aprox 12-14"
apart at the top of the door. Physics and legerage take over when you
open the door and the long moment between the wide bottom of the door
where the latches are located and the relatively narrow hinge attachment
makes for an easily twistable situation. I believe that most of the
'twist' comes from the immediate area that surrounds the hinges in at
the top of the door. You could try reinforcing that area, but the
inherant nature and flex of fiberglass is still going to be an issue
IMHO. The windows are also smack dab in the middle of this area.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Vern W. Smith wrote:
[quote]
If the doors are a bit flimsy, would it work to run some foam and fiber
glass "spars" inside to frame work between the inside and outside
shells?
Just looking at the drawing if an X shaped frame work was added above
and below the window it seems like it would help. Downside is it would
add some weight to the doors.
Vern (#324 fuselage)
--
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Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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Thanks, I think I understand the problem more clearly. Another fix maybe
to build the door or hang the hinges with a preload so the back of the
door always comes in contact with frame opening before the front of the
door contacts the frame. Or maybe install a fisheye mirror somewhere to
visual check the doors. Anyway, I look forward to this new challenge.
Till then it's time to pound the rivets:)
Vern (#324 fuselage)
--
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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Actually, it's pretty easy to see if you have a door not shut properly.
The hard part is just remembering to check. You can also just
reach around behind the door and feel for the pin protruding into
the cabin in the back. From a simplicity and security standpoint,
I think Van's latch pins are great. Having some fancier latches
could possibly just cause additional problems. The real help would
just be having a rear pull so you could pull evenly on the door.
Nothing too complex about the problem, or the check.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Vern W. Smith wrote:
[quote]
Thanks, I think I understand the problem more clearly. Another fix maybe
to build the door or hang the hinges with a preload so the back of the
door always comes in contact with frame opening before the front of the
door contacts the frame. Or maybe install a fisheye mirror somewhere to
visual check the doors. Anyway, I look forward to this new challenge.
Till then it's time to pound the rivets:)
Vern (#324 fuselage)
--
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jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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And adding some weight to the doors would render the shocks useless as
designed (they are barely strong enough as it is). The door, when closed
properly, is as strong as it needs to be. The strength, IMHO, proves to be
lacking a little when trying to close the door by just holding on to the
front handle. Adding the rear handle (just a place to grab, not anything
fancy) really helps with that. To do this, we just drilled 2 3/4" holes in
the inside of the shell where we wanted the handle, filled the area with
flocks, then drilled the holes and put in countersunk screws from the
outside. The handle is a cupboard handle from Lowe's, I think. It works
well, looks good (IMHO) and is very easy. The only downside I see is the
two screw heads showing on the outside, but you already have two at the door
handle, and about 1,500 on the wing root fairings, so what's two more?
Just my thoughts, no engineering or technical knowledge used.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: door latched security system |
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That was my original reluctance to install the lights; One more complication
that supposedly provides peace of mind can itself fail. I agree that
additional handles are going to installled in the rear. Extra pins may cause
problems in an emergency exit.
One other consideration: I will be looking for a way to ensure that an
article of clothing or errant power cord can not catch the handle and
unlatch the pins in flight.
---
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