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door latched security system - Door Closer
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LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Anyone have a solution to add a rear handle.  How would it attach to the 

fiberglass door? Would any reinforcement be necessary.



Here is a photo of the Lancair closer 

<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/door%5Fhandle/>

and also what looks like one on Vic's RV-10 

<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/SunNFun_2006/Vic%20RV10/slides/2006-04-07-SnF-13.html>



Larry Rosen

#356



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 there is no rear handle.

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I plan to add a rear handle and the easy way to do it is create a couple of 

1/2" circular hardpoints in the doors then drill and tap. Also considering 

adding another hand inserted pin for each door at the rear.

---

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:41 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I put a rear handle on my doors so it was easier to  pull in the rear part of the door before closing the door handle.  I used  rivnuts into the inside door frame and made a cloth handle with grommets in each  end and screwed it on.  Works great to make sure the rear part of the door  can be pulled in tight enough to allow both the front and rear pins to slide  into the frame.

  

 I also as part of the pre-flight manually check  both the pilots door and passenger door pins are fully seated by  feel.

  

 My pilots door DID NOT come off during one of my  test flights, however it came open on takeoff and I was lucky enough to have  made a long pull down loop strap that I was able to grab with my left hand while  making sure I was still flying the airplane and hold the door down enough to  keep it from coming completely off while I advised the tower I had a problem and  needed to come back around for landing.

  

 I made a somewhat normal close in downwind, base  and final, landed and had to replace a bent hinge and do a little fiberglass  work around the rear hinge which had pulled out.

  

 It is imperative to manually check each pin, front  and rear, on each door as part of the pre-departure check list.   

  

 The doors are in my opinion the weakest part of the  Van's RV-10 design, but it is without a doubt the best airplane I have every  flown in my 1500+ hours (owned 7, including an RV-6A).

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV First Flight 7/28/06

  

    [quote][b]

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I don't want to make you a bad guy Russ....but get a feel for this

with an honest question.



Were you very diligent about checking the pin before this happened,

or did this incident really set you in motion for doing it as

part of a good preflight check?



I'm just not yet installed on the warning kit, but I really don't

think I could trust myself to simply rely on a latch warning

kit any more than I could be trusted to check the pins.  I heard

way back about a door coming off, so I never really had a period

where I wasn't checking the pins...but not everyone had heard these

stories before, so it may be different for them.  I'm just

trying to get a feel for how it was for you.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - 180 hrs

Russell Daves wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I put a rear handle on my doors so it was easier to pull in the rear 

 part of the door before closing the door handle.  I used rivnuts into 

 the inside door frame and made a cloth handle with grommets in each end 

 and screwed it on.  Works great to make sure the rear part of the door 

 can be pulled in tight enough to allow both the front and rear pins to 

 slide into the frame.

  

 I also as part of the pre-flight manually check both the pilots door and 

 passenger door pins are fully seated by feel.

  

 My pilots door DID NOT come off during one of my test flights, however 

 it came open on takeoff and I was lucky enough to have made a long pull 

 down loop strap that I was able to grab with my left hand while making 

 sure I was still flying the airplane and hold the door down enough to 

 keep it from coming completely off while I advised the tower I had a 

 problem and needed to come back around for landing.

  

 I made a somewhat normal close in downwind, base and final, landed and 

 had to replace a bent hinge and do a little fiberglass work around the 

 rear hinge which had pulled out.

  

 It is imperative to manually check each pin, front and rear, on each 

 door as part of the pre-departure check list. 

  

 The doors are in my opinion the weakest part of the Van's RV-10 design, 

 but it is without a doubt the best airplane I have every flown in my 

 1500+ hours (owned 7, including an RV-6A).

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV First Flight 7/28/06

  

 

 *

 

 

 *

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

PS:  That fabric handle sounds like the excellent way to go, fastened

with rivnuts.  I'm going to see if later I can accomplish the same

thing easily.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Russell Daves wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I put a rear handle on my doors so it was easier to pull in the rear 

 part of the door before closing the door handle.  I used rivnuts into 

 the inside door frame and made a cloth handle with grommets in each end 

 and screwed it on.  Works great to make sure the rear part of the door 

 can be pulled in tight enough to allow both the front and rear pins to 

 slide into the frame.

  

 I also as part of the pre-flight manually check both the pilots door and 

 passenger door pins are fully seated by feel.

  

 My pilots door DID NOT come off during one of my test flights, however 

 it came open on takeoff and I was lucky enough to have made a long pull 

 down loop strap that I was able to grab with my left hand while making 

 sure I was still flying the airplane and hold the door down enough to 

 keep it from coming completely off while I advised the tower I had a 

 problem and needed to come back around for landing.

  

 I made a somewhat normal close in downwind, base and final, landed and 

 had to replace a bent hinge and do a little fiberglass work around the 

 rear hinge which had pulled out.

  

 It is imperative to manually check each pin, front and rear, on each 

 door as part of the pre-departure check list. 

  

 The doors are in my opinion the weakest part of the Van's RV-10 design, 

 but it is without a doubt the best airplane I have every flown in my 

 1500+ hours (owned 7, including an RV-6A).

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV First Flight 7/28/06

  

 

 *

 

 

 *

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

One other thing I saw a small knob that could be  threaded into a single hardpoint; just something to grab to pull the door fully  in before using the door handle.

 [quote]   ---

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Russ, The best thing about your post below is that you first "flew the

plane".  I have been in the flight training business for 34 years and

have personal knowledge of several fatalities because of lesser

incidences (lost fuel caps, open baggage doors, ect.)  GOOD JOB!!!!!  To

the rest of us NEVER, NEVER quit flying the plane!  Even if a door does

come off.



 



Tom Deutsch, 40545



Waiting to paint



 



 



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:14 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: door latched security system - Door Closer



 



One other thing I saw a small knob that could be threaded into a single

hardpoint; just something to grab to pull the door fully in before using

the door handle.



	---

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Were are you guys positioning the rear handle so us with bad shoulders can reach around and grab it?  Photos would help.  

     

Tom Deutsch  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves

 Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 5:40 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: door latched security system - Door Closer  

  

     

I put a rear handle on my doors so it was easier to pull in the rear part of the door before closing the door handle.  I used rivnuts into the inside door frame and made a cloth handle with grommets in each end and screwed it on.  Works great to make sure the rear part of the door can be pulled in tight enough to allow both the front and rear pins to slide into the frame.  

    

   

    

I also as part of the pre-flight manually check both the pilots door and passenger door pins are fully seated by feel.  

    

   

    

My pilots door DID NOT come off during one of my test flights, however it came open on takeoff and I was lucky enough to have made a long pull down loop strap that I was able to grab with my left hand while making sure I was still flying the airplane and hold the door down enough to keep it from coming completely off while I advised the tower I had a problem and needed to come back around for landing.  

    

   

    

I made a somewhat normal close in downwind, base and final, landed and had to replace a bent hinge and do a little fiberglass work around the rear hinge which had pulled out.  

    

   

    

It is imperative to manually check each pin, front and rear, on each door as part of the pre-departure check list.    

    

   

    

The doors are in my opinion the weakest part of the Van's RV-10 design, but it is without a doubt the best airplane I have every flown in my 1500+ hours (owned 7, including an RV-6A).  

    

   

    

Russ Daves  

    

N710RV First Flight 7/28/06  

    

   

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      [quote][b]

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

And he makes it part of his passenger brief, to include why it's part of his passenger brief so the passenger while trying to get a feel for the airplane is constantly looking at the door while flying with a wrist strap around his wrist to reel the door back in when it flys open!!!   



I was prepared though because I slept the night before at a Marriot Courtyard, not a Holiday Inn!!



Actually I slept at home, that comment was just for Tom!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Ok now I'm really curious! How did you know of my involvement with

Marriott?

Do not archive

Tom Deutsch, 

--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I don't know if I have enough knowledge to comment here, so I'll ask a 

few questions?  



Why not add switches (sub-micro or reed) to the door to detect proper 

closure and wire them to disable the starter relay if the door isn't 

closed properly?



Is the closure problem related all the door pins or just one or two per 

door? (how many pins are there???)



As for the 'dings' when the door is closed with the latch pins out ..... 

would a piece of stainless embedded in the frame minimize the damage??

Linn ...... getting closer to my own kit!

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Answers below.  

   

Jesse Saint  

I-TEC, Inc.  

jesse(at)itecusa.org  

www.itecusa.org  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

--

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Linn,



If you can picture this...the gas strut is located on the aft portion of the door. With the latch handle on the front. The door has some flex to it so when you pull it down at the front, the front leads the way and stops at the cabin cover frame. Due to it being flexible and pressure from the strut, the aft portion of the door stops just short of completely sitting flush on the cabin cover. That's why the rear handle works well, it seats the aft part of the door to the cabin, then the latch pins can pass into the nylon blocks located fore and aft on the cabin door frame. If the door isn't fully seated the pin will extend outside the rear cabin block wearing away and dinging the exterior finish as the pin bounces and grinds at that point. As the airplane moves forward the door shifts further aft until the front pin disengages and allows the door to open. 



I don't think this is a big deal. You just have to follow the pre-takeoff checklist and reach around and feel for the pins sticking through the framework. It worked just fine flying with Russ and adding the lights add another safety measure.



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I thought Tom was Motel 6, Tom Bodett that is...oh, wrong guy.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: door latched security system - Door Closer

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:07:33 -0800 (GMT-08:00)






And he makes it part of his passenger brief, to include why it's part of 

his passenger brief so the passenger while trying to get a feel for the 

airplane is constantly looking at the door while flying with a wrist strap 

around his wrist to reel the door back in when it flys open!!!  



I was prepared though because I slept the night before at a Marriot 

Courtyard, not a Holiday Inn!!



Actually I slept at home, that comment was just for Tom!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

 	  Quote: 	
		  From what it sounds like, a rotational handle at the middle of the door, 

down at the bottom edge, which has a taperred engagement piece, which pulls 
	


the bottom in while the handle is rotated, then at the same time causes a 

shaft from the rotating handle to be pushed forward to engage the front pin 

hole and another shaft going  back to engage the rear hole would work.



I would work on it if I had time, but since my builder number is 409 and I 

am QBing it and still don't have the cabin top on...I don't seem to be doing 

too well on pace. how about you guys who are finished...any desire to design 

improvements when you are not burning fuel?



I notice Tom's post, #545 waiting on paint. Damm. light speed you must build 

to be where you are.



Do Not Archive



[quote]From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: door latched security system - Door Closer

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:35:41 -0500



Answers below.



Jesse Saint



I-TEC, Inc.



jesse(at)itecusa.org



www.itecusa.org



Cell: 352-427-0285



Fax: 815-377-3694



--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I agree Tom.  When the prop departed my Pitts I went through  the '"Rule number one, fly the airplane.  Rule number two ...... see rule number one." littany ...... and I really don't know if I said it out loud or just in my mind.  The outcome was a non-event .... the Pitts landed uneventfully on A1A and the prop landed uneventfully in the ocean.

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 Tom Deutsch wrote:

 [quote]               v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  <![endif]-->   st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->            <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->            

Russ, The best thing about your post below is that you first “flew the plane”.  I have been in the flight training business for 34 years and have personal knowledge of several fatalities because of lesser incidences (lost fuel caps, open baggage doors, ect.)  GOOD JOB!!!!!  To the rest of us NEVER, NEVER quit flying the plane!  Even if a door does come off.      

            

Tom Deutsch, 40545      

Waiting to paint      

       

    

                  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of David McNeill

  Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:14 AM

  To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

  Subject: Re: door  latched security system - Door Closer   

      

            

One other thing I saw a small knob that could be threaded into a single hardpoint; just something to grab to pull the door fully in before using the door handle.   

      [quote]               

---

john.erickson(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I absolutely do not want to hear any more complaining from folks with

builder numbers in the 400's and up about going to slow. It will damage my

very fragile ego!! 



John

#40208 Wings 



--

wvu(at)ameritel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

There are two pins per door, one fwd and one aft which engage the holes in

the bulkheads to hold the doors shut. The closure problem is related to

the rear pins because the door handles are positioned near the fwd edge of

the doors, thus not enough pull power on the aft edge. Van's idiot lights

are sufficient to ensure proper closure before engine start. However, IMHO

the door latch mechanism needs to be redesign. I feel that sooner or later

the holes in the bulkheads are going to be enlarged from normal usage and

eventually lose their pressure on the door seals.  Those white blocks are

offering zero support IMHO being held on my two screws.

One other similar design issue.  I feel that the front seat adjustment

handles can use some more thoughts. They are too close to the side panels

to operate with one hand, especially if you're going to have covers on the

side panels. I had to use my two index fingers to pull the handle up to

slide the seat when flying with Alex last week. Also, it would be nice if

you can slide the seats off without having to losen the bolts holding the

handles on first.

Anh

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 I don't know if I have enough knowledge to comment here, so I'll ask a

 few questions?



 Why not add switches (sub-micro or reed) to the door to detect proper

 closure and wire them to disable the starter relay if the door isn't

 closed properly?



 Is the closure problem related all the door pins or just one or two per

 door? (how many pins are there???)



 As for the 'dings' when the door is closed with the latch pins out .....

 would a piece of stainless embedded in the frame minimize the damage??

 Linn ...... getting closer to my own kit!

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

Hey John!!



Back in the Viper??



And at builder #40185...no complaints from the 200's either, but as it comes together....August for a guess, I offer the quote..."Good things come to those who wait" 



There is not a "hurried" or "anxious"  bone in my body to finish, and given the opportunity to brag...the finished product will show that.  



As it get close John I'll let you know so you can get your leave scheduled;)



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: door latched security system - Door Closer

I don't mind owning up, I failed to manually check  the pins and this was my wake up call.  You can believe that it was the  last time that it failed to happen.

  

 Russ

  

 Do not archive

    [quote][b]

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