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Landing Gear

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Marshall

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: Landing Gear

Hi Kolbers,



Even thought I am working on a Firefly and trying to keep it legal, I think that the Grove aircraft landing gear system is worth a look for most aircraft applications.  http://www.groveaircraft.com/index.html

    http://www.groveaircraft.com/landing_gear.html



Also take a look at the    http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-design-gear.html      spring landing drop test curiosity of    http://www.zenithair.com/   (a great aircraft and design).



Thank you, Marshall Watkins

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: Landing Gear

I had the pleasure of being at Oshkosh and watching when Zenair first 

introduced the CH 701, it was making short field takeoffs and landings, and 

they did a max performance short field landing - the main gear spring attach 

brackets broke and the main gear leaf spring ripped loose and folded back, 

dumping the tail on the ground, and leaving the airplane sitting in the 

middle of the runway looking very forlorn. A bunch of Zenair guys promptly 

ran onto the field, picked it up and hustled it into immediate repairs 

before too many potential customers got a look at it. They had it flying 

again that afternoon, but the short field/quick stop landings were a lot 

less aggressive. So if you put a leaf spring gear on your Firefly, don't use 

just any old Zenair brackets you might have lying around...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

do not archive



PS - I have an old Zenair CH 701 radiator out in the hangar. Anyone wants it 

can have it for the cost of shipping. Beware - it is BRASS and weighs a ton.



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

A really nice wheel and brake system for the Firefly and other Kolbs is available from www.flyfbi.com 

   It is an overlooked option that is better than anything I have seen. I don't need wheels or brakes so I have not tried it.

    

   Steve 

   FF 007 on floats 

    

  

 --

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

At 09:01 AM 2/3/07 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Even thought I am working on a Firefly and trying to keep it legal, I think that the Grove aircraft landing gear system is worth a look for most aircraft applications.  http://www.groveaircraft.com/index.html

    http://www.groveaircraft.com/landing_gear.html




	


Marshall,



If you are trying to save some weight, stay with the Kolb aluminum legs.  I 

weighed one and it came out to 2 pounds 6.6 ounces. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

the Grove aircraft landing gear system is worth a look for most 

aircraft applications.  http://www.groveaircraft.com/index.html

 | Thank you, Marshall Watkins

Hi Marshall:



Looked at a lot of different gear legs for Kolbs since 1984.  Spring 

aluminum gear was one of them.  However, there are cheaper and better 

ways to go.  Aluminum can only be hardened to 7075 (correct me if I am 

wrong), ends up weighing a ton, and very expensive.



I use tubular 4130 heat treated to 48 RC.  Have been flying with it 

for 20 years and many thousand hours.  Has been thoroughly proven 

through many thousands of landings.  A lot of them not too purty.



Some folks say aluminum is better because it will not tear up the 

fuselage during a hard landing.  I have been able to tear up fuselage 

with aluminum as well as steel.  If you hit hard enough you will 

probably bend the cage with either.



Tubular steel is much lighter than the Grove gear.  25 to 35 lbs is 

heavy.  I think, IIRC, when we built the steel gear for my mkIII, it 

was the same weight as the solid rod aluminum legs.



For what it is worth,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

At 03:34 PM 2/3/2007, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



...Aluminum can only be hardened to 7075 (correct me if I am

wrong), ends up weighing a ton, and very expensive...


	


7075 isn't a hardness level, it's an alloy.  The hardness spec is a dash 

number, e.g. 7075-T6.  I don't have the numbers handy but 7075 (at any heat 

treat level) is quite strong, nearly as strong as unhardened 4130, but it's 

susceptible to stress corrosion cracking (cracks start around holes in 

stressed areas, or from scratches or nicks).   Aluminum has a better 

strength to weight ratio than steel, but it's more difficult to weld and 

repair (some alloys can't be welded at all).



 	  Quote: 	
		  Some folks say aluminum is better because it will not tear up the

fuselage during a hard landing.  I have been able to tear up fuselage

with aluminum as well as steel.  If you hit hard enough you will

probably bend the cage with either.


	


Exactly.  The ideal gear, I guess, is just slightly weaker than the 

fuselage attachments.



One advantage (which could also be a disadvantage depending on the 

situation) aluminum does have is that the modulus of elasticity is 1/3 that 

of steel... which means that all other things being equal it'll flex 

farther than steel of comparable strength before breaking (or staying bent).



                                 -Dana

--

--

Wernher von Braun settled for a V-2 instead of a V-8.

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

Wouldn't "1/3 that of steel" mean exactly opposite of what you said?

The modulus of elasticity of steel is greater than aluminum?

  ,

On Feb 3, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Dana Hague wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   One advantage (which could also be a disadvantage depending on the  

 situation) aluminum does have is that the modulus of elasticity is  

 1/3 that of steel... which means that all other things being equal  

 it'll flex farther than steel of comparable strength before  

 breaking (or staying bent).

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

That's what I said... aluminum's modulus is 1/3 that of steel; steel has 3X 

the modulus of aluminum... thus steel takes 3X the force to bend the same 

amount (until the elastic limit is reached)... or put the other way, for 

the same force aluminum will bend 3X as much.  If the breaking force is the 

same, that means the aluminum will bend 3X as much before breaking.

                                 -Dana

-Dana

At 04:43 PM 2/3/2007, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Wouldn't "1/3 that of steel" mean exactly opposite of what you said?

The modulus of elasticity of steel is greater than aluminum?

  ,

On Feb 3, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

>One advantage (which could also be a disadvantage depending on the

>situation) aluminum does have is that the modulus of elasticity is

>1/3 that of steel... which means that all other things being equal

>it'll flex farther than steel of comparable strength before

>breaking (or staying bent).

do not archive

--

--

Wernher von Braun settled for a V-2 instead of a V-8.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

| That's what I said... aluminum's modulus is 1/3 that of steel; 

steel has 3X

| the modulus of aluminum...  |

|                                 -Dana

Sorry.



You guys are way over my head.  I don't know one modulus from the 

other, but my gear works great.  Been there and done that.



I do know that 4130 makes a hell of a  better spring than 7075-T6.  We 

adjust the size, shape, and hardness to get the spring we want.  I can 

do that with 4130, but not 7075.



Steel springs are much more common than aluminum springs.  Wonder how 

come?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

There once was a modulus named Young

 From whom all landing gear sprung.

But one bad day,

While alighting in hay,

The Kolb legs turned softly to dung.

regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



DO NOT ARCHIVE

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Landing Gear

Steve et al,

I have looked at the FBI Black Max brakes online, but haven't talked to anyone who has used them or even seen them first hand.  Have you got a chance to look at them in person? They sound great and the price is right.  I down-loaded their installation manual and like the well thought out instructions and photos.  Has anyone on the list seen a set of these? AC Spruce is listing them on their web site.



Brakeless in Oregon

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: Landing Gear

At 10:01 PM 2/3/2007, R. Hankins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Steve et al,

I have looked at the FBI Black Max brakes online, but haven't talked to 

anyone who has used them or even seen them first hand.  Have you got a 

chance to look at them in person?


	


I have them on my Ultrastar.  I haven't flown or even taxied the plane yet 

so I can't comment on their performance, but from an engineering standpoint 

they look very good, and the previous owner was happy with them.  Mine are 

set up as heel brakes (just the way I like it) with two master cylinders.



Company service is good though; the 6" wide wheels that came with the plane 

(included with the brake package) were too wide for the plane to fit in the 

trailer, so I got a pair of 4" wide wheels from FBI and the plane now 

fits.  I do get the impression (could be wrong) that it's a one man shop; 

all my emails to him were answered in the evening.



                                 -Dana



--

--

Wernher von Braun settled for a V-2 instead of a V-8.

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: Landing Gear

All, I have them on my trike, and for that application they work just fine. They are certainly better than the nose wheel brake that was standard equipment. 

For airplanes, they lack the ability to brake differentially unless you add a second master cylinder as Dana has done. By the time you add that and the necessary components to enable it, I would bet they are a wash with the other sets ou there, pricewise. 

Have you checked out the system offered by TNK? Very high quality, the usual great service and you get what no other vendor can offer, i.e the experience of Travis, Donnie and the crew at TNK.

If you're not absolutely wedded to juice brakes, the Azusa mechanical units are impossible to beat for cost. I have the 4 1/2" units on my Mk 3 and they are quite adequate. 



Rick



On 2/4/07, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)>



At 10:01 PM 2/3/2007, R. Hankins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "R. Hankins" < rphanks(at)grantspass.com (rphanks(at)grantspass.com)>



Steve et al,

I have looked at the FBI Black Max brakes online, but haven't talked to

anyone who has used them or even seen them first hand.  Have you got a 

chance to look at them in person?


	


I have them on my Ultrastar.  I haven't flown or even taxied the plane yet

so I can't comment on their performance, but from an engineering standpoint

they look very good, and the previous owner was happy with them.  Mine are 

set up as heel brakes (just the way I like it) with two master cylinders.



Company service is good though; the 6" wide wheels that came with the plane

(included with the brake package) were too wide for the plane to fit in the 

trailer, so I got a pair of 4" wide wheels from FBI and the plane now

fits.  I do get the impression (could be wrong) that it's a one man shop;

all my emails to him were answered in the evening.



 

	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Landing Gear

In a message dated 2/3/2007 10:02:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  rphanks(at)grantspass.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "R. Hankins"    <rphanks(at)grantspass.com>



Steve et al,

I have looked at the FBI    Black Max brakes online, but haven't talked to anyone who has used them or    even seen them first hand.  Have you got a chance to look at them in    person? They sound great and the price is right.  I down-loaded their    installation manual and like the well thought out instructions and    photos.  Has anyone on the list seen a set of these? AC Spruce is listing    them on their web site.



Brakeless in  Oregon



	


 

 I spotted the brakes at SNF last year and dragged Bryan,Travis and Bruce  down to look at them. Everyone was impressed with the design, weight  and  cost. Travis was going to handle them and I believe that he ordered some. I will  check with Travis on Monday.

 In my opinion, the biggest plus was the weight or lack of, if you look at  the whole package. This really helps make weight in the Firefly. It also gives  you more tire. Kinda a cross between the stock baby tires and the overkill of a  wheelbarrow tire.

 Also, you are right about the size of the company. It is two guys that  design medical equipment if I recall.

 They use Cad and have access to the best machining equipment.

 BEST TIRE BRAKE COMBO I have seen.

  

 Hmm mm, maybe I can strap some on the bottom of my floats!!

  

 Steve

 Wheeless in the Water

  [quote][b]

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

In a message dated 2/4/2007 7:07:32 A.M. Central Standard Time,  d-m-hague(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I    have them on my Ultrastar.  I haven't flown or even taxied the plane yet    

so I can't comment on their performance, but from an engineering    standpoint 

they look very good, and the previous owner was happy with    them.  Mine are 

set up as heel brakes (just the way I like it) with    two master cylinders.



Company service is good though; the 6" wide    wheels that came with the plane 

(included with the brake package) were too    wide for the plane to fit in the 

trailer, so I got a pair of 4" wide    wheels from FBI and the plane now 

fits.  I do get the impression    (could be wrong) that it's a one man shop; 

all my emails to him were    answered in the evening.



                                       -Dana



	


 

           Dana,

     Any idea what the brake set up along with the master  cylinder and calipers weighs? 

  

  

              Ed  (in Houston  FF #62)

  [quote][b]

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: Landing Gear

At 04:31 PM 2/4/2007, DAquaNut(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		       Any idea what the brake set up along with the master cylinder and 

 calipers weighs?


	


Never having seen the package off the plane, I couldn't say... but it sure 

doesn't look like it's more than a few pounds:



http://flyfbi.com/html/hydraulic_brakes.html



                                 -Dana



--

--

Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: Landing Gear

Talked to Travis this morning.

   He has two set of the  Black Max in stock and has sold several sets.

   All good comments have come back

    

   Steve

    

    

    

    

 Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch! 

  

  

  

 

    

    [quote][b]

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