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kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: epoxys

What is the filler that you mix with the system three t-88 structural adhesive to hold in vertical places not to sag while curing?

Jerry Evans 

kitfox 555 [quote][b]

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: epoxys

Can you use baby/talcum powder? Cheap and easy. All you need to do is thicken the mixture.  

   

DO NOT use micro-balloons. While they do the job perfectly, you cannot breathe them in. Huge lung problems.  

   

Bradley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jerry evans

 Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 1:30 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: epoxys  

  

     

What is the filler that you mix with the system three t-88 structural adhesive to hold in vertical places not to sag while curing?  

  



 

 Jerry Evans 

 kitfox 555    	  Quote: 	
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_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

aldaniels(at)fmtcblue.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: epoxys

micro or flox depending on what you are doing. Micro is light and easy 

to work with but not as strong, flox adds strength but sands like concrete.



jerry evans wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What is the filler that you mix with the system three t-88 structural 

 adhesive to hold in vertical places not to sag while curing?

 Jerry Evans

 kitfox 555

 *

 *

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: epoxys

At 10:29 AM 2/3/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What is the filler that you mix with the system three t-88 

structural adhesive to hold in vertical places not to sag while curing?


	


Depends on what you're doing. First, Bradley's right, wear a good 

mask when using any of these as none of them are great for your lungs 

or nasal passages.



1. Microballoons. (Ceramic, glass, Q-cel, phenolic) Decreases 

compression strength a little and tensile and shear strength a lot. 

Medium-easy to sand. They make a putty but do NOT increase the 

viscosity, meaning that your fillet still sags, it just happens 

slower than pure resin. These are mainly used to extend resin, though 

a lot of people use them to make fairing putties. I don't recommend the latter.



2. Chopped glass / carbon / boron. Increases compression strength a 

little and tensile and shear strength a lot. Hard to sand. Does not 

increase viscosity. (See above.) Note that these fibers are fairly 

long, on the order of inches.



3. Milled fiber. Same as chopped but much shorter fibers for a more 

putty like consistency. Used for structural fillets.



4. Cotton Flock. Increases tensile and shear strength a little. Also 

increases viscosity, making a fillet that stays in place. Hard to sand.



5. Colloidal Silica or Cab-0-Sil. These increase viscosity, making a 

putty that stays in place. I'm not sure about their strength 

properties. They're also sandable.



6. Talc. Used to make a cheap sanding filler. Non-structural.



7. West System's 409 Micro-Lite. This is the best sandable putty I've 

ever used. It was used extensively in the America's Cup before they 

went to female molds for the boats. Non-structural



There's zillions more associated with non-skid, fire retardance, UV 

protection, etc.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: epoxys

Hi, Bradley,



In the Lancari project I have been helping with we have used a "ton" of 

mircroballoons.  I have been monitering the Lancari list for two years and 

this if the first time I have read "NO NOT" with regard to microballoons.  I 

spent some time on Google trying to find a MSDS on microballoons wothout 

success.  Can you elaberate on it's hazards and maybe stear me to a MSDS.



Lowell

---

flier(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: epoxys

Use cotton flox to thicken structural adhesive. 



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: epoxys

The only place I used a filler in epoxy was on my boat.  What I found is

filling with silicon made a much harder finish.  Sanding was much harder

than the micro balloons but it can be applied so very little sanding was

necessary.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: epoxys

I'll have to do some searching. A few years ago, the subject came up in the

RC model world, as microballoons are very popular in that hobby. At the

moment, I can't back that up with paper, but I do remember that the result

of that discussion was that the small glass beads are like breathing diamond

dust, and really chews up the lining in the lungs, a similar thing to what

happened to miners years back with no protection.



I'll see if I can find anything.



Bradley



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:24 am Post subject: epoxys

On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:48 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Can you elaberate on it's hazards and maybe stear me to a MSDS.


	


Bradley  has a point about microballoons being a potential health 

hazard if inhaled, Lowell. But how much of a hazard?



As an illustrator, before the age of the digital art, I used often 

glassfiber erasers when inking. I was told to be very careful with the 

dust it made. Then, in the yachting industry (as I designed sailboats, 

I had to experience the making of them) there was a lot of GRP hulls 

that had to be trimmed, etc. and a lot of polyester and glassfiber dust 

in the air, in those places. Some wore masks, some didn't.



But glass is silicate and I read that the lungs of Egyptian mummies are 

not very pretty to look at; A lot of soot from  indoor cooking, and a 

lot of silicate from the desert sand.



So, I think we should be careful with microballoons and all kind of 

silicate dust. But we don't need to be hysterical, it is not like 

asbestos.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: epoxys

At 05:00 PM 2/3/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  but I do remember that the result

of that discussion was that the small glass beads are like breathing diamond

dust, and really chews up the lining in the lungs, a similar thing to what

happened to miners years back with no protection.


	




I treat anything inorganic and small as a hazard, even if there's no 

notice. My weak understanding is that silicosis results from inhaled 

inorganic matter that's so small it can make it all the way to the 

alveoli where it is encapsulated by the lungs, thereby blocking off 

that region. It can't be expelled because it's beyond the "pipes", in 

an area where you can't generate enough velocity to expel it. (That's 

what normally happens with "larger" particles.) Some organic matter 

can be absorbed by the lungs.



Anything inorganic small enough to "float" in the air I treat as a 

hazard. I don't think microballoons will actually float, but the 

problem is that in a typical batch of microballoons a significant 

fraction are broken. It's the "pieces" I worry about, and I don't 

know that I could see them if they were floating. (If you buy Q-cell, 

the percentage of broken balloons is certified to be very low.)



I hope someone can come up with definitive information, but in my 

case I'll stay on the side of caution.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: epoxys

Thanks Michel,



I just get troubled with statements out of the blue like "don't use ....  I 

would think if the hazard was strong enough for a statement like that there 

would be some research out there - sort of like MEK and cancer.  A scary 

urban legend, but not based on any research I have been able to find 

including the MSDS.



Sometimes I get the idea poeple wish we could all stay in bed in filtered 

air eating organic food with little taste and somehow find life enjoyable 

and fulfilling.  I guess if a guy saw this stuff at work everyday for thirty 

five years, it might prove a problem but the occasional use while in the 

building process...?



Another search did find the MSDS on a produce called Syl Cell Microballoons 

and others.  See link below.



I have experienced the acute affects to a slight degree.  The trick to 

mixing is to proportion the resin in a cup, add the micro and then simply 

walk forward around the work area while mixing you will be moving into an 

area of clean air as you mix.  No problem.  I do use a mask while sanding.



http://www.eagerplastics.com/silcelmsds.htm

http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/pdf/msds/3MGlassBubbles.pdf

http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=191069



Lowell

---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: epoxys

You should also put a small amount of microballoons in the adhesive when you

are gluing two dissimilar metals together to prevent the actual contact of

the two metals and thus prevent galvanic corrosion.



Thanks for the MSDS Lowell.  It doesn't sound like they are very bad.



Randy

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: epoxys

On Feb 4, 2007, at 4:58 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sometimes I get the idea poeple wish we could all stay in bed in 

 filtered air eating organic food with little taste and somehow find 

 life enjoyable and fulfilling.


	


Good Lord, don't stay in bed, Lowell; most accidents happen at home, 

didn't you know that? A much safer place to be is ... in a Kitfox!  



Cheers,

Michel

PS: Went flying both yesterday and today. Lovely winter flying!



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: epoxys

The glass fabric is to an extent dangerous to good health.  The epoxy resins

are supposed to be quite toxic. Common horse sense says to wear a good

respirator... Preferably one withy a remote air supply.



So much for theory.



I use a respirator with the canisters on the front.  When at home I use a

similar respirator but I also try to sand outdoors with my back to the

breeze.  BTW when god created respirators he made them totally

uncomfortable.... I hate wearing one but I wouldn't be without it.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: epoxys

The best respirator I have found lies in an Israeli M-15 gas mask. You can find good deals on them and the filters on E-Bay. They are full face, comfortable, and they have a generous field of vision. I can also attach a fresh air hose to the canister area as it came with an adaptor. Just a thought. 

  My 2 cents on wearing protection...when in doubt...do it.

  Dan,

  KF-IV  Building

  Mesa, AZ

   

   

   

   

  Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" 



The glass fabric is to an extent dangerous to good health. The epoxy resins

are supposed to be quite toxic. Common horse sense says to wear a good

respirator... Preferably one withy a remote air  supply.



So much for theory.



I use a respirator with the canisters on the front. When at home I use a

similar respirator but I also try to sand outdoors with my back to the

breeze. BTW when god created respirators he made them totally

uncomfortable.... I hate wearing one but I wouldn't be without it.



Noel



[quote] --

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: epoxys

At 04:22 PM 2/4/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  BTW when god created respirators he made them totally

uncomfortable.... I hate wearing one but I wouldn't be without it.


	


When I bought one for painting I splurged and bought the best 

canister unit I could find with the best filters. It turned out to be 

surprisingly comfortable, so much so that I pretty much forget it's 

on if I really get into the task. It's nice, because I can then wear 

it from the time I pull the paint until after I'm done cleaning up. 

The filtration is so good there's absolutely no trace of odor, even 

when painting lacquer.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

jlfernan

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
Location: MIAMI

Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: epoxys

I've got a new Supersport kit and included with the kit was two part Hysol.  How much flox is used when the ratio of the Hysol is 1:1?

_________________
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Fuselage/Forward Controls
http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: epoxys

Jorge,



When I built, in the old days of the 3M structural adhesive, the flox was 

added to the point where the adhesive would no longer sag after placement.. 

This adhesive was used in assembling the wing ribs to wing spars as well as 

in other non structural applications.  If there are other instructions 

unique to Hysol, others will respond.



Lowell



---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: epoxys

Back when we were using the West epoxy system the stuff came with 

detailed instructions which said add the flox or other filler until 

you arrive at the consistency of peanut butter and could spread it on 

with a pop stick. Thicker is better for vertical surfaces to keep the 

epoxy from flowing. Chopped Fiberglas or strands of Fiberglas are 

used for stronger final product.  Glass beads and ground up powder 

are also used just to make the stuff thick like flox.



I bet you could get on line and get Hysols detailed instructions for 

their product.

Paul

================

 	  Quote: 	
		  >

>

>I've got a new Supersport kit and included with the kit was two 

>part Hysol.  How much flox is used when the ratio of the Hysol is 1:1?

>

>--------

>Jorge Fernandez

>Supersport

>Waiting on delivery

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: epoxys

as i understand it glass beads are not just like flox. beads are used to 

stiffen the mix , say to use as filler, but they weaken the mix and should 

not be used in a structural application.  bob noffs

---

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