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White Paper on Russian Generator System
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Thanks Mark,



I'll follow your advise and check the antenna cabling, but I also will

verify the different groundings of the radio system(the casing, the

connectors on the left side of the cockpit, and the connectors of the

push-to-talk switch behind the throttle. I'll fix a grounding wire thru all

those ground connectors right up to the battery to make certain that there's

no ground loop. A second thing that I'll try (if this does not solve the

problem) is a noise filter on the DC line to the radio. 



Anyway, I am CERTAIN that the silicone plug wires from Dennis' kit are a

very good thing. The engine simply runs better (and only 15 flying hours

before I had installed NEW Russian spark plugs + my mags were serviced in

Nov 2006 by a very good Russian mechanic, Sergei Makarov). 



With the old Russian ignition harness I also had some noise but it was less

apparent. The new American cables give a better spark, and thus I suppose

they draw more power from the mags, so the fact there's more EMI radiation

coming from the mag POINTS is feasible.



The wiring of my radio is not perfect. I replaced the original Ziabrik by a

Briz a few months ago, but the Briz cabling was entirely different. I kept

the old Ziabrik cables and did put the new Briz cables alongside. This is

probably far from ideal but as you know, this is not an easy job.



I also will check the Tach generator as you suggested. As a matter of fact

I'll verify all non-plug wires on the engine side of the firewall(I noticed

that my carburettor temperature cable is in a bad shape, for instance).  



I'll keep you informed about the test results,



Best regards,



Jan



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Jan, 



Let me repeat one thing if I may.  If the noise to your radio goes away

completely when you disconnect the (almost) BNC connector on the back of

the radio that connects the antenna, then there is absolutely no use in

messing with the radios wiring what-so-over.  Trust me on this one.

Radio noise can come in via a few different sources.  The wires you

speak of, or the antenna, or both.  If you disconnect the coax

connection to the radio, AT the radio, and all noise goes away

completely, then all noise is coming in from the antenna itself.  Noise

filters will NEVER stop this type of noise.  That is because the radio

is actually RECEIVING what it is SUPPOSED to be receiving.  I.E. "RF

ENERGY".    



As for spark energy.... You mention the spark plug cables. I agree ...

More or less.... But don't forget that the spark plugs now being used

are much MUCH better than anything being used before.  Leaps and bounds

better.  



If the shielding on the Tach Generator becomes completely disconnected,

the resultant noise can be so strong that it actually causes DAMAGE to

the receiver front end in a Balken-5 (sp) model radio flying in a 52.  I

have actually seen that happen and have repaired the damage myself....

So believe me, it's true.   



Pulling the antenna connector off the radio will tell the story.  



Mark



P.s.  There is ONE very REMOTE possibility that can help if all noise

STOPS when you pull off the coax cable connector from the radio, and

that is called "common mode interference".  In cases like that, noise

comes down the shield of the coax and gets into the radio THAT way.

This can be eliminated by using torroidal chokes on the exerior of the

coax close to the radio.  They look like small donuts, and using the

right ones are important.  Regardless, this still presumes that all

noise goes away when you disconnect the antenna coax from the radio.  



If that does as I expect it to do, and all noise goes away, then put the

coax back on the radio, and disconnect the connection from the antenna

itself.  It the noise is still gone, it is NOT common mode interference,

and you either need to turn up the squelch, or eliminate the noise at

the source.... Not radio wiring.  





--

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Mark,



Thanks for the additional operating voltage data ... I've also found some more info on the differential relay.



I've included excerpts from the email you sent me too ... although you copied this into the YAK-List for some reason it didn't appear.



My comments below are prefixed RR>> ...



Cheers, Rob

 	  Quote: 	
		  Thank you. Since then, I have seen confirmation that there are two types 

of polarization relays.. if not more... since I have taken a second 200D 

apart. The one I have in the one I am invesitagating now is almost the same 

constuction, but it clearly has a large bus bar type arrangement that 

surrounds the lever arm and clearly is a current operated device. It is 

possible that the first one I had, which is now back in my airplane, had 

something LIKE that that might have been buried under the material that 

mounted the relay. I find it hard to believe there are two different 

designs... two different relays, sure.. .but not two different designs. 

Without a shadow of a doubt, this second one has a large current operated 

magnetic field influencing the lever arm.

.... 

I agree with you. It is clear that the one mis-statement is the part that 

says: "Two windings on the same core". I have a clear definition of what a 

"core" is. Others may understand that term in a different way. What is 

true regardless, is that neither the first or second polarization relay I 

have examined have two systems on the same core. BOTH have a standard coil 

on core arrangement that is normal for "typical relays". I am assuming that 

this is the shunt winding. The series arrangment on the second example uses 

bar bar material to influence the magnetic field of the first standard 

winding and this I assume to be the series array. 	




>>RR I found & translated the (attached) DMR-200D drawing which provides a basic

cross-section of the differential relay, highlighting the various points we've discussed;

- the latching mechanism appears to be the permanent magnets used to polarise the operation (there's also a spring)

- the differential action across / between the shunt & series "windings" (sic) tips the see-saw armature

- there is an adjustment screw shown

Unfortunately the accompanying description was the same as the YAK ops handbook, which is even less informative than the Sukhoi info.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hmm... I could not find your attachment... but I am pretty sure it is the 

same device. I looked at a 52, and it was the same part in that aircraft. 

I did not open that one up though. 	




>>RR I'll resend the marked up photo of the installed DMR-200D to your private email (c.300Kb), together with a 

revised Russian / English alphabet mapping ... simplified & now includes all 31 Cyrillic chars used in modern Russian.

I'll put up a new "alphabet" thread on the YAK-List too with this PDF file to see if it's of wider use / interest.

Btw - could not verify that I'd correctly labelled the "-" connection from my photo, ditto could not locate connection "A" ... can you confirm please, if you still have a DMR-200D to hand?

 	  Quote: 	
		  The relay in question [TKE1R2D] has an A & B coil contact terminal on the 200D. B 

goes to the terminal marked negative on the 200D , and A goes to terminal V 

on the 200D. The relay contacts themselves... there are three of them.. 

unusual in itself. Contact marked number one on the relay itself feeds 

two relay "arms". These two arms are common to each other. A wire goes 

from relay terminal contact 1 and connects to the main generator input 

terminal, which by the way is also connected to the "+" terminal on the 200D 

with another internal connection, again as per the diagram. 



On this same relay, there is a solder contact point 2 AND 3. The diagram I sent just shows them both marked as "3", but in reality they are marked on the relay itself as 2 and 3. These are both normally open contacts that 

BOTH get connected to relay terminal 1 when the relay energizes. Terminal contact 2 goes to the Polarization relay contact terminal as shown in the diagram. Terminal contact 3 feeds to the normally closed contacts of relay TKE210B as per the diagram. 	




>>RR from your description it seems there are two sets of contacts with the inputs paralleled from the generator feed; one output side feeds the external signalling relay, the other feeds the series connection of the differential polarised relay

>>RR From your email to me ...



 	  Quote: 	
		  As an afterthought ... would it be possible for you to test the TKE1R2D

activation voltage threshold as well please ... I'd guess that it would act

like most "ordinary" relays / solenoids & work at c.1/3 of its rated voltage

... but these things are Russian so who knows.



THEY SURPRISED ME BY TRIPPING AT A MUCH LOWER VOLTAGE THAN SUSPECTED.



My interest lies in seeing how the whole DMR-200D interacts as the generator

voltage increases post start-up.



WITH A 24 VOLT BATTERY IN THE AIRCRAFT, THE 200D MAIN CONTACTOR CLOSED AT 18

VOLTS.  	




RR>> Was there much of load on the battery just before the contactor closed ... as presume the generator voltage needed to be just larger than the bus before the shunt polarised relay would operate?



 	  Quote: 	
		  HOWEVER, THE TEST CIRCUIT DID NOT ALLOW REVERSE CURRENT FLOW!  IN

THE AIRCRAFT, AS THE ENGINE RPM DECREASED, YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE WHERE CURRENT

STARTS FLOWING IN REVERSE TO THE GENERATOR AS YOU WATCH THE AIRCRAFTS

AMMETER.  IT HAPPENS VERY QUICKLY, BUT I SAW AT LEAST 7-10 AMPS OF REVERSE

CURRENT FLOW AND THEN THE CONTACTOR KICKED OPEN AND THE GENERATOR LIGHT CAME

ON.



Logically the TKE1R2D activates first (at what voltage?),



APPARENTLY AT A PRETTY DARN LOW VOLTAGE.



allowing the

TKE210B to do so next until the differential between the generator & the

battery becomes too small (at what voltage?) & it releases, thereby arming

the polarised shunt relay when the generator voltage just exceeds that of

the battery.



"APPARENTLY" IS THE CORRECT TERM.  I CAN VERIFY THAT FROM TODAYS ENGINE

TESTS (REAL WORLD) THAT WHEN THE GENERATOR LIGHT WENT OUT, AS IN... THE MAIN

CONTACTOR CLOSING, WHICH THUS MEANS TOO WHEN THE POLARIZATION RELAY CLOSED,

THAT I OBSERVED ZERO... I REPEAT  *NO*  REVERSE CURRENT.  AS SOON AS THE

GENERATOR CAME ON LINE, THERE WAS A POSITIVE CHARGE THE BATTERIES, WHICH

CONFIRMS THE NOTE THAT SAYS THAT GEN VOLTAGE MUST BE HIGHER THAN BAT VOLTAGE

TO CLOSE THE CONTACTOR.  I TESTED THIS AT LEAST 10 TIMES.   ON THE OTHER

HAND, WHEN ENGINE RPM WAS SLOWED UNTIL THE GEN LIGHT CAME ON, THE REVERSE

CURRENT  SURGED..... REPEAT ... SURGED AND THEN THE CONTACTOR IMMEDIATELY

OPENED.  THESE OBSERVED EVENTS TEND TO VERIFY THEORY OF OPERATION. 	




>>RR There seems to be a tipping point at (34% rpm) where the shunt wound generator creates a load in its own right through becoming a battery driven DC motor ... which could well be the surge you saw before the polarised relay isolated it. From searching the net I also found a reference to a WWII era aircraft that was prone to having the reverse current relay stick causing the battery to quickly run flat, unless overidden by the "generator switch" (that would deactivate the TKE1R2D in our case).

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  What happens when the battery is less than its rated voltage might be

interesting to see as well, with the above trigger voltages being the key ..

hence the interest.



THERE IS INDEED A NOTE ON THAT.   THE 200D WILL CLOSE AND PROVIDE BUS POWER

AT NO LOWER THAN 20 VOLTS WITH A DEAD BATTERY. 	




>>RR Wondered about this 20 volt statement (hence the above queries on relay operating voltages) ... need to think on this some more as to why it stabilises at greater than 20 volts.  From a practical perspective I guess it's not a good idea to have the generator charge a heavily discharged battery anyway, especially if you're using Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries as these can be damaged by charging them over c.1/4 (4-6 amps) of their rated capacity ... aside from the safety issues.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks again for being the R&D department!



IT WAS NOT BY CHOICE ROB!   IN ANY CASE, I AM NO LONGER WORRIED ABOUT WHAT I

AM GOING TO DO WHEN IT BREAKS THE FIRST TIME AND I HAVE TO DECIPHER THE

WIRING SCHEMATIC NIGHTMARE!  NOW I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT, AND

ALTHOUGH IT TOOK A WEEK OF HARD WORK, IT WAS WORTH IT IN THE END.  WHAT I

FOUND TO BE VERY GRATIFYING WAS SEEING THE REPAIRED 200D WORK PERFECTLY WITH

AMERICAN MADE RELAYS REPLACING BOTH TKE DEVICES.  THIS IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW

SINCE THERE SEEM TO BE NO SPARE 200D DEVICES LAYING AROUND.  I KNOW OF A FEW

BAD ONES THAT I CAN NOW OFFER TO FIX... BUT I REALLY DO NOT LOOK FORWARD TO

THE IDEA... THEY ARE A TIME CONSUMING PART TO REPAIR.



Let me switch back to lower case here... I despise typing in upper case, it

always feels like I am SCREAMING!  :-)   Here is something I also learned

the hard way.  The Russian wires are very stiff.  I kept soldering them

directly to my new relays and had a devil of a tiime doing so.  My new relay

solder points were very small and not strong.  Hence I ruined about 3 of

them before I said to heck with this nonsense!   Instead I used American

made teflon insulated 22 gage multi-strand wire to solder to my new relays

and then spliced THAT into the old Russian wiring, replacing as much as the

Russian wiring as I could as long as it was fairly easy.  My new relays are

rated at 2 amps of contact current.  The relays that they are controlling

have current draws about half of that.  I think they should last.  In any

case, it was better than spending $1000 for a totally new system.

DMR-200D relay.pdf

Description:

DMR-200D sectional drawing

Download

Filename:

DMR-200D relay.pdf

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR I found & translated the (attached) DMR-200D drawing which provides


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  >a basic

cross-section of the differential relay, highlighting the various points
	


we've discussed;

- the latching mechanism appears to be the permanent magnets used to

polarise the operation (there's also a spring)

- the differential action across / between the shunt & series "windings"

(sic) tips the see-saw armature

- there is an adjustment screw shown

Unfortunately the accompanying description was the same as the YAK ops

handbook, which is even less informative than the Sukhoi info.



You need to get one in your hands and mess with it yourself I think Rob.

Wish I could help you in that regard!  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR I'll resend the marked up photo of the installed DMR-200D to your

private email (c.300Kb), together with a 
	


revised Russian / English alphabet mapping ... simplified & now includes

all 31 Cyrillic chars used in modern Russian.

I'll put up a new "alphabet" thread on the YAK-List too with this PDF

file to see if it's of wider use / interest.

Btw - could not verify that I'd correctly labelled the "-" connection

from my photo, ditto could not locate connection "A" ... can you confirm

please, if you still have a DMR-200D to hand?



The "A" connection goes directly to the plus side of the main contactor

relay coil.  Assuming of course the letter "A" is the letter "A".  It is

located right below the negative marking.... Right side middle....

Marked with "-".  



 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR from your description it seems there are two sets of contacts with

the inputs paralleled from the generator feed; 
	




That is correct.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR one output side feeds the external signalling relay, the other

feeds the series connection of the differential polarised relay
	




As per the diagram, exactly.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR From your email to me ...


	


RR>> Was there much of load on the battery just before the contactor

closed ... as presume the generator voltage needed to be just larger

than the bus before the shunt polarised relay would operate?



I was measuring the exact voltage at the contactor itself.  There was no

"load" on the battery per se.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR There seems to be a tipping point at (34% rpm) where the shunt

wound generator creates a load in its own right through becoming a
	


battery driven DC motor ... which could well be the surge you saw before

the polarised relay isolated it. From searching the net I also found a

reference to a WWII era aircraft that was prone to having the reverse

current relay stick causing the battery to quickly run flat, unless

overidden by the "generator switch" (that would deactivate the TKE1R2D

in our case).

 

That is correct.  This type of generator does exactly as you describe

thus the need for the reverse current capability.  Agreed on all your

further comments too.  I looked at WW-II designs as well and they helped

me to finally grasp the purpose for each part in this design.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >RR Wondered about this 20 volt statement (hence the above queries on

relay operating voltages) ... need to think on this some more as to why
	


it stabilises at greater than 20 volts.  From a practical perspective I

guess it's not a good idea to have the generator charge a heavily

discharged battery anyway, especially if you're using Valve Regulated

Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries as these can be damaged by charging them over

c.1/4 (4-6 amps) of their rated capacity ... aside from the safety

issues.



I tested the 200D with NO BATTERY AT ALL connected to the output. The

main contactor in fact closed.  This surprised me.  However, it also

matched what the book said it would do if there was no battery voltage.

With the battery totally disconnected from the 200D, the main contactor

closed at 20 volts.  So in fact, if your batteries ARE completely

discharged, the bad things you mentioned will indeed probably happen.

Small price to pay!   



Mark

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Well Mark with that out of the way I guess we've done this topic to death now!



Thanks, Rob R

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

You're right Rob! 



But don't worry, it will come back with a vengeance when the same part

goes bad on another YAK product flying around someplace!  



Mark

 

--

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

So that just leaves the other YAK DC power mystery ... why does the battery discharge if the master switch is (mistakenly) left in the external power position (down)?



According to the schematics the battery should be isolated & nothing should form a load ... but something does, as this occurs on -52s & I think on -50s too. Don't know if the CJ's have the same problem.



I'll get my coat!  



Rob R

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Rob,

As you have said, schematically it is virtually impossible for that to 

happen.  In fact, on my personal airplane (52) I have left the 

battery/external power switch down for days at a time and did not have any 

discharging of the aircraft battery.   So whatever is causing it is not 

reflected in the electrical schematics.

Dennis



---

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Ditto - I had someone else fly my aerie and noted the master had been left

full down - no problem.

--

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

This topic is officially back alive...



My generator has not been tripping off correctly at low RPM (Reverse Current).  I installed a new Carbon Pile Regulator with no change.  



Installed a spare DMR-200D (S/n: 1361243)  "Combined Device" and the problem actually got worse, where the battery would dead short at shut down.  (Thanks a lot Bill!)



I opened my original Combined Device (S/n: 1861584) and cleaned the points which looked grody.  Also started messing with the adjustments.



See the Reverse Polarization relay here:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nou8dcJAA7s



There are 2 adjustments on the "Teter-Toter".  One to adjust the relative position of the contacts, the other I have no idea but it would be convenient if it adjusted the thing that doesn't work.

IMG_0308 [640x480].jpg

Description:

The "Contacts Screw"

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IMG_0309 [640x480].jpg

Description:

The "Adjustmet Screw" (Specs?)

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Tj,

Contact mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil. He has worked this problem before.

Doc



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

On Dec 23, 2007, at 6:16 PM, tjyak50 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This topic is officially back alive...



 My generator has not been tripping off correctly at low RPM  

 (Reverse Current).  I installed a new Carbon Pile Regulator with no  

 change.


	


Why keep messing with the generator? It is heavy and prone to  

failure. Why not just switch to an alternator and be done with the  

problems? The switch is easier on the M14 as there is already a seal  

for the generator shaft coupling. Is it because there is not a dirt- 

cheap, bolt-on solution?

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Hi TJ,



Remote diagnostics are notoriously difficult ... but I'm wondering if something other than your DMR-200D is in play here, as the replacement made no difference (or made matters seemingly worse).



When you said "the battery would dead short at shut down" I presume this took the 50 Amp fuse out in short order ... if so I'll speculate that it may have been the generator turning into a 3KW motor (c.100A) that could cause this action (the onset of this is what normally trips the differential relay off). 



Can you recall if the red "generator offline" warning light;



- was operating normally i.e turned off & stayed off above c.36%?



- illuminated again when you reduced the throttle below c.34%, or did it just stay off?



Did you happen to try turning the generator switch "off" on the front panel to try and force it offline? 

If so what, if anything, happened?



Cheers, Rob Rowe

G-YAKX

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Brian:

I am going to order an Alternator (about $1000 bucks), but I fly my airplane 5 times a week and can't get the parts here until after the holiday.



Rob:

My "Gen Out" light has been notoriously unreliable for the last year.

It does not come on at any time, except maybe once in a while.

I discovered if I "TAP" on relay TKE52PODR which is connected to terminal "C" of the combined device the light comes on, but then won't work correctly for long.  Funky relay I think.



That replacement "200" would never kick the gen offline and flat short the battery, but I switched off the GEN switch instantly and nothing else popped.  That "200" is out of the airplane.



My gen comes on normally at 36%, but does not turn off below 34%.  It is more like 20%.  The GEN OUT light may or may not come on.



Tj

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

I also installed the B&C alternator and voltage regulation circuitry in my

Yak 50, because I had problems with the voltage regulator. Unless you're

very good at this kind of old-type electronics (e.g. Mark Bitterlich, the

editor of the White Paper), you're better served with a modern device. An

added advantage is the gain in weight.

Jan Mevis

YK50 RA2005K

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Ok, I'm definitely an imbecile on this and definitely not a sparky...are

talking a direct hookup via the solid state regulator?

Doc



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 Ok, I'm definitely an imbecile on this and definitely not a  

 sparky...are

 talking a direct hookup via the solid state regulator?


	


With the B&C you end up with the following connections:



1. Alternator 'B' lead (the fat wire) goes back to your main power  

distribution bus;



2. three leads from your bus to the regulator, one switched  

(alternator field power), one to sense the voltage, and one for the  

low-voltage light;



3. a lead from the regulator to the alternator (field current);



4. ground.



If you have an internally regulated alternator it can be as simple as  

just a B-lead connection. OTOH, that gets a little dangerous if the  

alternator runs away as it will fry everything in the electrical  

system unless you can disconnect the alternator somehow.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

I (respectfully) disagree with Brian on this one.  Maybe there are quick and dirty replacements available, but none of them that I have looked at are what I would call "cheap".  In truth, the cheapest system to maintain is the Russian one.  All the people that have switched to B&C and so forth means there is usually a plethora of spare parts available.  Want a brand new never used Russian Generator?  I can get you one right now for $100.  Try replacing ANY alternator today for that price.  So what if it quits after 600 hours?

  

 The rub is the complexity..... which is not all that bad once you figure it out.  

  

 For example, had Tom asked me, or had I read his message sooner, I could have and would have told him that the carbon pile regulator has nothing to do with this.  If you are still around Tom, failure of the generator to cut out at low RPM should be noticed by a very large increase in reverse battery current on the meter in your 50.  If it is doing what you THINK it is doing,  look at the ammeter in the cockpit and slowly bring the engine to idle.  The normal ammeter reading should be a few amps.  As you bring it to idle the ammeter should go past zero in the OPPOSITE direction as you get near idle... and then the generator light should come on.  DO NOT CONFUSE THE GENERATOR LIGHT NOT COMING ON WITH THE GENERATOR NOT DISCONNECTING!!!!  If the generator does not actually disconnect, which I sincerely doubt is happening to you because  otherwise there would have been lots of smoke by now..... then as idle is reached the ammeter will be pegged negative!  Is this happening?  If not, then it is a LIGHT problem not a GENERATOR DISCONNECT problem.  Apples and Oranges.  

  

 Proof can also be had by turning on your master with the engine NOT RUNNING.  Turn on your generator switch on very quickly while watching the ammeter.  If it pegs negative than you have a generator disconnect problem.  If it (the ammeter) does not move, then you have a LIGHT problem, and not a DISCONNECT problem.  

   

 Disconnect problems are caused purely by the combined device.  This relay can actually be ADJUSTED to control drop out.  But... my guess is that you simply have a bad GENERATOR LIGHT RELAY.  Simple problem.  Cheap to fix.  

  

 To everyone else, let me say this...  I agree with Brian Lloyd 99.999999999999999999999% of the time with anything and everything he says and respect his viewpoints without question.  This is that one tiny percent of the time when I completely disagree.  I believe that ripping the whole electrical system apart to replace it with "An American Version" is without merit unless you are trying to address the weight.  To do it just because you don't want to learn how the Russian system works is a choice of course, but my question to that is: "didn't we all guess that something like this might eventually happen when we PURCHASED a foreign made aircraft, or were we all just naive?

  

 I Do agree with Brian that the reason most people do not switch is because there IS NO "easy bolt on solution".  But I can maintain 90% of the Russian system much cheaper than anything you can put on that works nearly as well.  Yes it takes time to learn, but if my White Paper sucks so badly that most can not understand it, I'll re-write it.  In the meant time, if you have a question... ask me.  I know that system pretty darn well by now. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



 

 ---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

For what it is worth:

  

 Mark.Bitterlich(at)navy.mil (Mark.Bitterlich(at)navy.mil)   work... but it is CHRISTMAS and I am taking some time off thank you Jesus.  

  

 yakplt(at)yahoo.com (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)   Everywhere else.  

  

 markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)   personal.  

  

 252-671-7005 cell if you are in a REALLY bad way.  

  

 Merry Christmas, 

  

 Mark

 



 

 ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Mark,  

Old warriors don’t take time off. They still take leave or …the just fade away :>)).  

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:24 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System  

  

  

       

For what it is worth:  

    

   

    

Mark.Bitterlich(at)navy.mil (Mark.Bitterlich(at)navy.mil)   work... but it is CHRISTMAS and I am taking some time off thank you Jesus.    

    

   

    

yakplt(at)yahoo.com (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)   Everywhere else.    

    

   

    

markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)   personal.    

    

   

    

252-671-7005 cell if you are in a REALLY bad way.    

    

   

    

Merry Christmas,   

    

   

    

Mark  

    



 

    

    

---

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