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dead-stick topic

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rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

Michel,

 When I was in training it was considered risky to practice engine out 

procedures by doing actual dead stick flight. Most of the training 

flights were by flight schools and were done from tower controlled 

airports. Possible dead stick practice accidents were enough of a 

deterent to the schools considering they might be done by solo students 

if taught by instructors.

 I see no problem practicing them if you are allowed by the airport 

authorities or have your own airstrip as long as safe procedures.are 

followed. I intend to do them myself one day.

Rex

Snowy Colorado

Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 28, 2006, at 11:20 PM, dave wrote:

> well why not do some stalls and take off the headset to hear the 

> sounds you described before and all i heard was the air leaks !!

 That would certainly be a good way to find out where the sound is 

 coming from, Dave. However, I have a problem. One year ago, I was 

 talking to this list about dead-stick landing and after I was told 

 that I never tried it after doing it with my instructor, I was told 

 that I should. Then I obeyed and I did, and I enjoyed it. In fact, 

 each time I am alone and the weather is stable, I land dead-stick. A 

 while ago, I told that to the Jabiru Engine list. There, I got the 

 opposite reaction. I was told that it was dangerous to cut out a 

 perfectly running engine and that I could try dead-stick with the 

 engine at idle.

 Now, I am confused and I don't know if I should or I should not.

 Cheers,

 Michel

 do not archive

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

Once you have mastered the procedure you should be fine.  The reason they

don't teach this is that if you find out that you are not going to make the

field until the last min then you don't have enough time to restart the

engine and in some cases it wont start any way.



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

When I was training my instructor and myself were out doing forced

approaches one day.  It was a very cold dry day and we had had a very cold

week.  All the ponds in the area were frozen over just like skating rinks.

For training purposes we used a hard deck of 500'.  On one of the approaches

I lined up to land on one of the ponds The instructor asked why I didn't

line up on the woods road beside the pond.  I told him about wing clearance,

potholes and the fact on the ice there was plenty of room for a rescue

aircraft to land also with the weather we had the ice was no doubt up to

carrying our weight.  Also many ski-doo tracks went across the ice and

showed it to be very strong....  He said OK.  I asked him then if he wanted

to make the next one a full on landing....  He wasn't interested!  I later

told him that when flying with my father in his Lake LA4 we regularly landed

on ice.



For our forced approaches we used Engine to idle, carb heat and 20 Deg. Flap

(C172) with 3 sec of full throttle every 500' of decent to keep the CHT up.

It was considered very important to do the engine warms. 



At that time a student and instructor (different flight school) got their

wings doing the exact same thing some 200 Mi away.  Apparently they had

engine problems when going around from a forced approach.  The weather in

their local was considerably warmer and damper than ours so I suspect what

they had was carb icing.



After that we were given a hard deck of 1000' AGL for forced approaches.



I have seen a film of a fellow in Alaska who flies a Cub  stripped down.  In

order to land he has to shut down his engine as he doesn't have breaks.  He

also doesn't have a starter.  Every landing at his home strip is both dead

stick and short on soft field.  Hi wife and son fly in and out every day

under the same conditions.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

On the subject of intentional dead stick landings, we should check the FAR's 

to make sure that it legal to do so. Back when I was building hours towards 

my commercial rating I told an FAA friend that I was doing intentional dead 

stick landings and he said that they were not allowed by the regs.



Ron   N55KF



do not archive

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

Better get a longish ladder for those guys that went flying without an

engine.  If there is such a regulation by FAA it just goes to show how

uninformed some civil servants really are.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

On Dec 30, 2006, at 2:45 AM, ron schick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ah Michel    I always try to learn from others then do as I feel 

 comfortable.


	


Here is how I feel about it, Ron. I don't do anything that is not 

necessary, this is recreational aviation, right? The pleasure is in 

flying. But training for an eventual engine stop is part of safe 

flying, I think. It happens that, with the Jabiru the engine stopped, 

my plane sinks a bit faster than at idle. Norway is not Illinois and if 

I find a field for landing, it will be of a handkerchief size. So, I 

train dead-stick precision landing at my very long asphalt runway home 

airfield. I have a friend who lost power on initial climb and while it 

went just fine (did a 180 and downwind landing) he get very irritated 

by the three or four seconds he lost by thinking: "This is not 

happening to me! This is not happening to me!"

I think aviation safety is about recognising at once a situation and 

act as an automatic response to what one has trained for. I have read 

of bad emergency landings due to the pilot not being able to make his 

mind where to land, or trying vainly to restart the engine.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

kitfoxjunky(at)decisionla
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

Before the Kitfox, I used to jockey around a C-150 Aerobat.  I was taking some aerobatic instruction at a remote strip and the instructor pulled the mixture and had me nose up till the prop stopped.  That was my first real dead stick landing in a powered airplane. Many years later the family rented a cottage in Northern Ontario, and there was a 6,000 abandoned airstrip next to the lake. I used to go out very early in the morning just after sunrise...climb to 4000' above the field, then shut down the engine and do dead stick landings.  Those got to be  routine so I moved up to dead stick loops and rolls.   At first I found there was a big difference emotionally between a windmilling prop and one that was not moving...then I simply got used to it. 

 

I mentioned this when hanger flying once and someone called it reckless.  After that I kept my mouth shut.   About three years ago I had my first real emergency landing, and I think part of the reason I remained calm was because seeing the prop stopped was not unfamiliar.  In retrospect, I was glad I had that dead stick experience under my belt.  

 

 

Gary Walsh

 KF IV  Anphib 912S

 C-GOOT

 www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox

 

 do not archive [quote][b]

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Michel,


	


I agree with you completely.  Back in 1967 while I was building hours to get 

my commercial rating I was being instructed by a pilot from Unites Airlines 

who was also a good friend of mine. With him on board a Cessna 150 we did 20 

deadstick landings where we killed the engine completely at 10,000 feet. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From that height we glided back to our home airport 10 times with the prop 

windmilling and 10 flights with the prop stopped. My friend assurred me that 
	


during the next 40 to 50 years of flying, I was sure to have at least one 

complete engine failure forcing me into a gliding situation. He wanted me to 

be ready for it when it happened. I learned the difference in the way the 

plane flew in each mode and when I should use the turning or stopped prop to 

best suit the situation. After the 20 flights I felt good about facing the 

time that it would happen.

When it did occur in N55KF back in 1992 with just 92 hours on a new engine, 

that experience paid off. It all came back to me. To this date I still shut 

the engine off and glide for fun. I start at 5000 feet agl and chase 

thermals over a long grass strip out in the country.

Back then when I took my commercial flight test the examiner pulled the 

mixture at 2500 ' agl and said that my plane was on fire and my kids were in 

the back seat. I had to get the plane on the ground as fast as possible. 

After spiraling down and turning final the examiner told me to hit the white 

line at the start of the runway. After hitting the line he said "I like to 

see that again".I said "ok thats easy". I pushed the mixture in and with the 

prop still windmilling, advanced the throttle at which point he pulled it 

back and had me taxi to the parking area. He said that he was considering 

failing me because of my cocky attitude when I told him that I could easily 

hit the white line a second time. It was then that I told him of my 20 

deadstick landings and that was how I became proficient at deadstick spot 

landings....

He advised me that, at that time, it was illegal to deliberately kill an 

engine as it was considered to be an "aeorbatic" maneuver which I was not 

checked out to do. He knew that I was going to be hired by United soon and 

he passed me anyway.

Today, I spend an hour going thru the regs looking for anything on 

"deliberately" killing ones engine. I could find nothing on the subject but 

if something is there, it is beyond me.



Happy New Year everyone,      Ron



 	  Quote: 	
		   Here is how I feel about it, Ron. I don't do anything that is not 

 necessary, this is recreational aviation, right? The pleasure is in 

 flying. But training for an eventual engine stop is part of safe flying, I 

 think. It happens that, with the Jabiru the engine stopped, my plane sinks 

 a bit faster than at idle. Norway is not Illinois and if I find a field 

 for landing, it will be of a handkerchief size. So, I train dead-stick 

 precision landing at my very long asphalt runway home airfield. I have a 

 friend who lost power on initial climb and while it went just fine (did a 

 180 and downwind landing) he get very irritated by the three or four 

 seconds he lost by thinking: "This is not happening to me! This is not 

 happening to me!"

 I think aviation safety is about recognising at once a situation and act 

 as an automatic response to what one has trained for. I have read of bad 

 emergency landings due to the pilot not being able to make his mind where 

 to land, or trying vainly to restart the engine.



 Cheers,

 Michel



 do not archive

Graeme Toft

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 123

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

Michel, I couldn't agree more. Time is so precious when encountering an 

engine failure and it is not always when we have the luxury of sufficient 

height that it happens. I am fortunate to have walked away from 2 engine 

failures but both were totally different. On the first occasion I was at 

1500 feet and by the time I realised the prop was stationary and that the 

engine had failed I had lost precious time that could have been better used. 

It was only after a good ten to fifteen seconds that my training really 

kicked in and I carried out my first forced landing with time on my side. 

The second as you know was totally different in that I was only at 300 - 400 

ft and a long way offshore. You would think that the first experience would 

have conditioned me to handle the second one in a more professional manner, 

but I am convinced that we all handle stressful situations differently. In 

my case the realisation of the engine failing again took time to sink in and 

compounding the situation was that this time due to the NSI gear box, the 

prop was free wheeling quite fast. My brain was tell me the instruments were 

receding, my eyes were telling me that the prop was turning and my ears were 

telling me that the normal flight noises had stopped. I was confused and 

clearly remember questioning what I was seeing.  Again I lost valuable time 

and with limited options was lucky to select one that again I walked away 

from ( Or should I say swam away from).  You are completely right in saying 

"I think aviation safety is about recognising at once a situation and act as 

an automatic response to what one has trained for" but Imp afraid I don't 

know how many times it takes to prepare you for the real thing. I only know 

that without me taking the same sensible approach to engine failures as you 

do yourself, I truly believe I would be wearing my wings rather that 

strapping them onto my back when I fly.



Do not archive



Regards

Graeme



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

If it were me it would be  reckless... but I haven't spent a lot of time doing deadstick landings.  As  for loops and rolls power off this is normal fare for gliders and it sounds to  me like you have gained a lot lf gliding experience.

  

 I might try a few dead stick  landings.   I fly floats and there is a lot of water around  here.  With the added weight and drag of floats I'll pass on the rolls and  loops 

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

On Dec 31, 2006, at 4:09 AM, kitfoxjunky wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   About three years ago I had my first real emergency landing, and I 

 think part of the reason I remained calm was because seeing the prop 

 stopped was not unfamiliar.


	


This is exactly what happened to me when I did my first dead-stick 

landing without an instructor, I became fascinated by looking at the 

prop that had stopped. Wrong reaction! But I was over a 3 km long 

runway of a nearby commercial airport, I had plenty of time to make my 

landing.



Incidentally, I went flying a bit today, the last day of the year, and 

did some stalls. The sound I hear doesn't come from the wings. I think 

it might come from the elevator. I hear it when the stall starts and 

when I get out of it.



Have a very nice new year's celebration, everyone, and ... many happy 

flying hours next year! (Gee, flying a Kitfox is good; I had so much 

fun today!)



Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

I don't suppose your elevator hinges are a bit loose??



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

On Dec 31, 2006, at 4:58 AM, QSS wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Imp afraid I don't know how many times it takes to prepare you for the 

 real thing.


	


I don't know either, Graeme. If you go to this site:

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/index.html

then look at "Last Words," in the menu, you'll see from the cockpit 

voice recordings that some professional pilots keep professional to 

their last words - as if they were robots; while others loose control 

of their feelings.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

Michel,



You said it sounds like fabric ripping?  Back there? 

Check all your elevator/stab mounts for solid

attachment.  It may take a lot of force, but then they

move a little?



Kurt S.



--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Incidentally, I went flying a bit today, the last

 day of the year, and 

 did some stalls. The sound I hear doesn't come from

 the wings. I think 

 it might come from the elevator. I hear it when the

 stall starts and when I get out of it.

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Michel

 

 do not archive


	


__________________________________________________

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

On Jan 3, 2007, at 8:10 AM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   You said it sounds like fabric ripping?  Back there?

 Check all your elevator/stab mounts for solid

 attachment.  It may take a lot of force, but then they

 move a little?


	


Well, not exactly ripping fabric, Kurt, but rather 'slamming on the 

fabric.' Of course, I do a very careful walk-around prior to each 

flight and I haven't notice anything loose or even slightly untied. But 

when I lift the horizontal stab, with my hand, I can hear a sound that 

comes from the elevator's hinges that are slightly moving. But it's a 

weak sound and I doubt that's what I hear when I stall. But I'll try 

your trick of using the unused headset mike as a direction finder. 

Actually, I'll do anything to have a reason to go out flying! 



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

Michel,



Right after I finished my last test flying, I had a

loud drumming on the belly fabric on landing from the

next flight.  It really got my attention!  What was

coming appart!!!



Seems that I had removed the camera I used for

inflight panel recording during testing, but didn't

remove the rubber washer from the camera mount bolt. 

It came off the (up facing) bolt and that little 

rubber washer (about the size for a garden hose)

sounded like the tail wheel was coming off.  Found it

under the baggage deck.



Sometimes it is the simple stuff....



Kurt S.  S-5

..........

--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 3, 2007, at 8:10 AM, kurt schrader wrote:

 > You said it sounds like fabric ripping?  Back

 there?

 > Check all your elevator/stab mounts for solid

 > attachment.  It may take a lot of force, but then

 they move a little?

.........
	


 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well, not exactly ripping fabric, Kurt, but rather

 'slamming on the 

 fabric.' Of course, I do a very careful walk-around

 prior to each 

 flight and I haven't notice anything loose or even

 slightly untied. But 

 when I lift the horizontal stab, with my hand, I can

 hear a sound that 

 comes from the elevator's hinges that are slightly

 moving. But it's a 

 weak sound and I doubt that's what I hear when I

 stall. But I'll try 

 your trick of using the unused headset mike as a

 direction finder. 

 Actually, I'll do anything to have a reason to go

 out flying! 

 

 Cheers,

 Michel

 

 do not archive


	


__________________________________________________

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

On Jan 5, 2007, at 6:10 AM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sometimes it is the simple stuff....


	


I agree Kurt. Maybe it's only (the stall sound) my denture coming 

loose, hitting my glass eye, which lifts my wig and disturbs my hearing 

aid. 



Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: dead-stick topic

Actually, I first thought of viking helmit horns doing

something bad during stalls....  



First sign of a Norwegian stall?  Your helmit sticks

to the skylight...



For me, stalls are usually fine.  But if I haven't

spun in a while, there is usually a strange noise

coming from the cockpit.



Kurt S.



--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 5, 2007, at 6:10 AM, kurt schrader wrote:

 > Sometimes it is the simple stuff....

 

 I agree Kurt. Maybe it's only (the stall sound) my

 denture coming 

 loose, hitting my glass eye, which lifts my wig and

 disturbs my hearing aid. 

 

 Michel

 

 do not archive


	


__________________________________________________

FlyboyTR

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: Re: dead-stick topic

Just a short response/comment about dead stick landings.  Of all “major” component failures in your airplane…I’ll take an engine-out…hands down!  …wing, elevator, tail, etc…fails…or at worst it chooses it’s own direction of travel away from the plane… all the piloting skill in the world isn’t going to help, unless you have a BRS, etc.  I have always been a believer in being the PIC and being able to “fly the plane” without the assistance of forward thrust.  Dead stick landings in a C-177 Cardinal were common practice…and actually quite fun.  In the 90’s we shifted from GA to Quicksilver’s and Challengers (about 2500+ hours).  Here we found people that had fly-ins with “field events.”  Dead stick landings were our specialty…always!   9 out of 10 landings I could drop the wheels within 10 feet of the line…the 1 out of 10 I fell short a few feet!  Good stuff!



My CFI (1970) was a crazy WWII pilot.  His stories of walking away from the crash left a deep impression on me.  I will try to quote something he said.  “…If you can’t control your aircraft at MCA, with or without an engine, or put the #!%& wheels where YOU want them, with or without an engine, or instantly respond to an inflight emergency…what gives you the right to think you can fly at 150 knots!  Planes don’t crash into the air…they crash into the %!#$ ground!  Going up in the only option you have…you’re coming down and you’d #$% well better know how to put your plane exactly where you want it”  I don’t think I will ever forget his words.  …may he RIP.    



This diatribe is longer than I had planned.  Sorry!  However, I have always practiced dead-stick landings, and we are now practicing them in our Kitfox Vixen.  During an emergency, time is what you usually don’t have.  Wasting it (time) trying to figure out what you should do could easily be your killer!  Always have a plan, always FLY the plane…with or without the engine!  As my old CFI (Tommy) said, “Going up is optional…you’re coming down!”



Travis

_________________
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
www.enotam.net (My Flying Info Website)

Last edited by FlyboyTR on Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: dead-stick topic

Well imagine the first time you practice a deadstick because the engine  really did quit....  that's scarey 

  [quote][b]

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