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QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I 

should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for leaks, 

ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?



I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the a 

few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason to 

remove, inspect, and re-install.



Thanks for comments.

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

I had problems with a few of the screws not wanting to come out, too.  

Twisted the head off of one of them. The plans said to remove the  

tanks, so I did. Have installed the senders, repaired a dent that I  

put in one leading edge, leak checked, and they are now ready to go  

back on. However, it is a little easier to finish the stall warning  

system, wiring, pitot system, etc. with the tanks off. I am also  

installing SafeAir1 extended range tanks, so the main tanks have to  

be off for that reason.



David Maib

40559

wings



do not archive



On Apr 7, 2007, at 10:41 PM, MauleDriver wrote:






I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether  

I should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for  

leaks, ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?



I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with  

the a few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good  

reason to remove, inspect, and re-install.



Thanks for comments.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

dav1111(at)suddenlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

I would strongly recommend that the QB tanks be removed  and tested for leaks.  I wished I had!!!  

  

 In addition, if I had it to do over again I would not have  installed the stall warning as it is a waste of time and does little to help  with stall warning.  If you have it set right on the money and can't tell  that you are way too slow you are a really bad pilot.  If you have it set  just a little bit high and fly a no power approach with full flaps it is going  to sound off long before your wheels touch down in a full flare power off  landing which can cause some passengers a little concern.  Set a little low  it does nothing until after you have already started recovery from  a full stall.

  

 The RV-10 stall with my IO-540 and MT prop is so  predictable and recognizable in level flight that it is hard for me  to understand how any reasonably competent pilot who has put the RV-10  through full flight testing would ever need the stall warning  device.

  

 In addition, unless you round off the edges of the  stall warning blade you WILL catch your shirt on it and bend it which then  makes it useless until the test and re-test where it needs to be bent to  get it right on the money.  Ask me how I know!!

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06

 100+ hours and loving  it 

    [quote][b]

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

I didn't remove my fuel tanks and have no problems after 90+ hours.  I agree 

with Russ on leaving the stall warning off.  I left if off and installed an 

AOA which makes every landing picture perfect.  Now if you believe that I 

have some ocean front property in Arizona I want to sell you.



Mark

N410MR





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)suddenlink.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 06:10:01 -0500



I would strongly recommend that the QB tanks be removed and tested for 

leaks.  I wished I had!!!



In addition, if I had it to do over again I would not have installed the 

stall warning as it is a waste of time and does little to help with stall 

warning.  If you have it set right on the money and can't tell that you are 

way too slow you are a really bad pilot.  If you have it set just a little 

bit high and fly a no power approach with full flaps it is going to sound 

off long before your wheels touch down in a full flare power off landing 

which can cause some passengers a little concern.  Set a little low it does 

nothing until after you have already started recovery from a full stall.



The RV-10 stall with my IO-540 and MT prop is so predictable and 

recognizable in level flight that it is hard for me to understand how any 

reasonably competent pilot who has put the RV-10 through full flight 

testing would ever need the stall warning device.



In addition, unless you round off the edges of the stall warning blade you 

WILL catch your shirt on it and bend it which then makes it useless until 

the test and re-test where it needs to be bent to get it right on the 

money.  Ask me how I know!!



Russ Daves

N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06

100+ hours and loving it


	


_________________________________________________________________

Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings 

https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117

davelammers(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Hi "MauleDriver",



The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the installation of 

the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be done with the tank 

installed, unless of course the balloon leak test discovers a leak, then 

the tank might need to be removed to locate the leak.  Here is what I 

would do if I were doing it again:

 

First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are 

found, I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect for 

proper torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.: no removal.



Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity to 

install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this forum 

before that the access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of 

the wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.  I added 3/4 x 3/4 

stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal one(s) need to have the 

web fluted to give the flange the proper curvature.  All quite easy to 

do but time consuming.  However after it is all done, access to the 

sensor switch (the purpose of the panel in the first place) is difficult 

for all but the longest, skinniest arms with full swivel joints at the 

wrists, etc.  Some have opted to, or advised to, leave out the stall 

horn.  This is my third homebuilt aircraft and the first with any sort 

of stall or AOA sensor of any kind.  I thought seriously about leaving 

it out.  However, I plan on letting others use this aircraft.  In the 

event (heaven forbid) of a serious accident, I can just hear the lawyers 

talking about the irresponsibility of leaving out a safety warning 

device that was in the plans and recommended by the manufacturer.  (It's 

a real shame frivolous lawsuits have modified responsible and reasonable 

behavior-but so be it).

Any way, so what would I do?

I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to near 

the next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on the 

outboard side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the switch for 

maintenance through the removed wing tip.  (Some will argue that the 

flow is different outside the flap area-true-but that is the reason for 

access-to make the fine tune adjustments).

Advantages of this entire approach:

No tank removal (if they pass leak test)

Easy access to stall warn switch.

No cutting into the wing for an access panel.

Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).



Regards,

Dave Lammers

RV-6 flying

RV-10 coming along





MauleDriver wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I 

 should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for 

 leaks, ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?



 I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the 

 a few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason 

 to remove, inspect, and re-install.



 Thanks for comments.

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

>access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of the wing.  If 

you install per plans, it will oil-can.

I put the access panels in BOTH leading edges, since I am also using 

them for access to the Safeair ER tank fuel lines, and transfer pumps. 

Installing them per plans resulted in no oil canning whatsoever. 

Obviously your experience is different, but I wouldn't say that they 

*will* oil can, just that they might.

As always, your mileage may vary...

-Jim 40384

Dave Lammers wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi "MauleDriver",

 The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the installation 

 of the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be done with the 

 tank installed, unless of course the balloon leak test discovers a 

 leak, then the tank might need to be removed to locate the leak.  Here 

 is what I would do if I were doing it again:

 First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are 

 found, I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect for 

 proper torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.: no 

 removal.

 Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity to 

 install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this forum 

 before that the access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of 

 the wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.  I added 3/4 x 

 3/4 stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal one(s) need to 

 have the web fluted to give the flange the proper curvature.  All 

 quite easy to do but time consuming.  However after it is all done, 

 access to the sensor switch (the purpose of the panel in the first 

 place) is difficult for all but the longest, skinniest arms with full 

 swivel joints at the wrists, etc.  Some have opted to, or advised to, 

 leave out the stall horn.  This is my third homebuilt aircraft and the 

 first with any sort of stall or AOA sensor of any kind.  I thought 

 seriously about leaving it out.  However, I plan on letting others use 

 this aircraft.  In the event (heaven forbid) of a serious accident, I 

 can just hear the lawyers talking about the irresponsibility of 

 leaving out a safety warning device that was in the plans and 

 recommended by the manufacturer.  (It's a real shame frivolous 

 lawsuits have modified responsible and reasonable behavior-but so be it).

 Any way, so what would I do?

 I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to near 

 the next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on the 

 outboard side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the switch for 

 maintenance through the removed wing tip.  (Some will argue that the 

 flow is different outside the flap area-true-but that is the reason 

 for access-to make the fine tune adjustments).

 Advantages of this entire approach:

 No tank removal (if they pass leak test)

 Easy access to stall warn switch.

 No cutting into the wing for an access panel.

 Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).

 Regards,

 Dave Lammers

 RV-6 flying

 RV-10 coming along

 MauleDriver wrote:

> 

>

> I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether 

> I should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for 

> leaks, ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?

>

> I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with 

> the a few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good 

> reason to remove, inspect, and re-install.

>

> Thanks for comments.

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Dave,

Do you think a fully functioning AOA instrument is a good safety warning 

device and an alternative to the stall warning device supplied by Vans that 

would avoid a lawsuit?

When approaching a stall in my RV-10 a nice lady inside my AOA reminds me 

"angle-angle-push- push".

Mark

N410MR

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 10:27:55 -0500

Hi "MauleDriver",

The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the installation of 

the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be done with the tank 

installed, unless of course the balloon leak test discovers a leak, then 

the tank might need to be removed to locate the leak.  Here is what I would 

do if I were doing it again:

First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are found, 

I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect for proper 

torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.: no removal.

Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity to 

install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this forum 

before that the access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of the 

wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.  I added 3/4 x 3/4 

stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal one(s) need to have the web 

fluted to give the flange the proper curvature.  All quite easy to do but 

time consuming.  However after it is all done, access to the sensor switch 

(the purpose of the panel in the first place) is difficult for all but the 

longest, skinniest arms with full swivel joints at the wrists, etc.  Some 

have opted to, or advised to, leave out the stall horn.  This is my third 

homebuilt aircraft and the first with any sort of stall or AOA sensor of 

any kind.  I thought seriously about leaving it out.  However, I plan on 

letting others use this aircraft.  In the event (heaven forbid) of a 

serious accident, I can just hear the lawyers talking about the 

irresponsibility of leaving out a safety warning device that was in the 

plans and recommended by the manufacturer.  (It's a real shame frivolous 

lawsuits have modified responsible and reasonable behavior-but so be it).

Any way, so what would I do?

I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to near the 

next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on the outboard 

side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the switch for maintenance 

through the removed wing tip.  (Some will argue that the flow is different 

outside the flap area-true-but that is the reason for access-to make the 

fine tune adjustments).

Advantages of this entire approach:

No tank removal (if they pass leak test)

Easy access to stall warn switch.

No cutting into the wing for an access panel.

Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).

Regards,

Dave Lammers

RV-6 flying

RV-10 coming along

MauleDriver wrote:

>

>

>I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I 

>should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for leaks, 

>ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?

>

>I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the a 

>few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason to 

>remove, inspect, and re-install.

>

>Thanks for comments.

_________________________________________________________________

Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. 

http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

James,

I am glad to hear you say that, because I have installed the access  

panels in both wings for ER tank plumbing and pump access, too.

David Maib

40559

wings

do not archive

On Apr 8, 2007, at 10:40 AM, James Hein wrote:

 >access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of the wing.   

If you install per plans, it will oil-can.

I put the access panels in BOTH leading edges, since I am also using  

them for access to the Safeair ER tank fuel lines, and transfer  

pumps. Installing them per plans resulted in no oil canning  

whatsoever. Obviously your experience is different, but I wouldn't  

say that they *will* oil can, just that they might.

As always, your mileage may vary...

-Jim 40384

Dave Lammers wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi "MauleDriver",

 The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the  

 installation of the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be  

 done with the tank installed, unless of course the balloon leak  

 test discovers a leak, then the tank might need to be removed to  

 locate the leak.  Here is what I would do if I were doing it again:

 First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are  

 found, I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect  

 for proper torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.:  

 no removal.

 Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity  

 to install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this  

 forum before that the access panel is poorly located due to the  

 curvature of the wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.   

 I added 3/4 x 3/4 stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal  

 one(s) need to have the web fluted to give the flange the proper  

 curvature.  All quite easy to do but time consuming.  However after  

 it is all done, access to the sensor switch (the purpose of the  

 panel in the first place) is difficult for all but the longest,  

 skinniest arms with full swivel joints at the wrists, etc.  Some  

 have opted to, or advised to, leave out the stall horn.  This is my  

 third homebuilt aircraft and the first with any sort of stall or  

 AOA sensor of any kind.  I thought seriously about leaving it out.   

 However, I plan on letting others use this aircraft.  In the event  

 (heaven forbid) of a serious accident, I can just hear the lawyers  

 talking about the irresponsibility of leaving out a safety warning  

 device that was in the plans and recommended by the manufacturer.   

 (It's a real shame frivolous lawsuits have modified responsible and  

 reasonable behavior-but so be it).

 Any way, so what would I do?

 I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to  

 near the next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on  

 the outboard side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the  

 switch for maintenance through the removed wing tip.  (Some will  

 argue that the flow is different outside the flap area-true-but  

 that is the reason for access-to make the fine tune adjustments).

 Advantages of this entire approach:

 No tank removal (if they pass leak test)

 Easy access to stall warn switch.

 No cutting into the wing for an access panel.

 Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).

 Regards,

 Dave Lammers

 RV-6 flying

 RV-10 coming along

 MauleDriver wrote:

> 

>

> I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through  

> whether I should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders,  

> test for leaks, ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?

>

> I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with  

> the a few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good  

> reason to remove, inspect, and re-install.

>

> Thanks for comments.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

I'm with Mark on this, and I also put a couple of rivets in those holes and installed an AoA.  Considering all the big and military planes don't have a little tab out there and rely on AoA sensors I would classify this as an improvement over manufacturers design.  Using differential pressure or a flying vane is much more accurate way to determine an impending stall and compensates for a myrid of environmental factors.



My 2 cents

Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Limbo

Do not archive



--

davelammers(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Mark,

 Great question, but when you added the modifier "that would avoid a lawsuit" you made any answer conjecture at best.

 Before the modifier was added, I would argue in the affirmative.

 You would certainly need to prove that your substitute is as good or better than what the kit manufacturer recommended.

 Difficult at best with any random group of pilots, let alone a group of folks who haven't a clue of what this is all about.

 Regards,

 Dave Lammers

 

 Mark Ritter wrote: [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com> (mritter509(at)msn.com)   

   

 Dave,   

   

 Do you think a fully functioning AOA instrument is a good safety warning device and an alternative to the stall warning device supplied by Vans that would avoid a lawsuit?   

   

 When approaching a stall in my RV-10 a nice lady inside my AOA reminds me "angle-angle-push- push".   

   

 Mark   

 N410MR   

   

   

   

   

    	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com> (davelammers(at)mchsi.com)     

 Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)     

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)     

 Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal     

 Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 10:27:55 -0500     

     

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com> (davelammers(at)mchsi.com)     

     

 Hi "MauleDriver",     

     

 The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the installation of the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be done with the tank installed, unless of course the balloon leak test discovers a leak, then the tank might need to be removed to locate the leak.  Here is what I would do if I were doing it again:     

     

 First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are found, I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect for proper torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.: no removal.     

     

 Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity to install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this forum before that the access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of the wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.  I added 3/4 x 3/4 stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal one(s) need to have the web fluted to give the flange the proper curvature.  All quite easy to do but time consuming.  However after it is all done, access to the sensor switch (the purpose of the panel in the first place) is difficult for all but the longest, skinniest arms with full swivel joints at the wrists, etc.  Some have opted to, or advised to, leave out the stall horn.  This is my third homebuilt aircraft and the first with any sort of stall or AOA sensor of any kind.  I thought seriously about leaving it out.  However, I plan on letting others use this aircraft.  In the event (heaven forbid) of a serious accident, I can just hear the lawyers talking about the irresponsibility of leaving out a safety warning device that was in the plans and recommended by the manufacturer.  (It's a real shame frivolous lawsuits have modified responsible and reasonable behavior-but so be it).     

 Any way, so what would I do?     

 I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to near the next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on the outboard side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the switch for maintenance through the removed wing tip.  (Some will argue that the flow is different outside the flap area-true-but that is the reason for access-to make the fine tune adjustments).     

 Advantages of this entire approach:     

 No tank removal (if they pass leak test)     

 Easy access to stall warn switch.     

 No cutting into the wing for an access panel.     

 Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).     

     

 Regards,     

 Dave Lammers     

 RV-6 flying     

 RV-10 coming along     

     

     

     

     

 MauleDriver wrote:     

     

      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)       

       

 I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for leaks, ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?       

       

 I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the a few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason to remove, inspect, and re-install.       

       

 Thanks for comments.       

       

       

       

       

       

       

     	
     

     

     

     

     

   	
   

 _________________________________________________________________   

 Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

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 [b]

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Dave,



Looking at your signature, I see you are not flying yet.  I don't recall any message from flying RV-10 owners that there was oil canning of this access panels.  Where did you here this?   I don't think they would oil can any more than the un-reinforced 0.025 wing skins to which they are attached.  Just curious since I have access panels in both wings and they did not require any unusual methods to get them in good and tight in the standard location.  Also access to the stall warning mechanism and the aux fuel fittings was fine from the access panel in the standard location.  Your 3/4 X 3/4 stiffeners while definitely making the area stronger, may be another case of solving a problem that does not exist.  



Even if I did not add the stock Van's stall warning, I would still install the access panel so you can install it at a later date, should you or the next owner change their minds.



http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/07Wings/wings45.html



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Dave,



Even with a factory installed stall warning the trial lawyers will find 

another hundred or so reasons why the builder caused the accident.



Mark



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 11:39:19 -0500



Mark,

Great question, but when you added the modifier "that would avoid a 

lawsuit" you made any answer conjecture at best.

Before the modifier was added, I would argue in the affirmative.

You would certainly need to prove that your substitute is as good or better 

than what the kit manufacturer recommended.

Difficult at best with any random group of pilots, let alone a group of 

folks who haven't a clue of what this is all about.

Regards,

Dave Lammers



Mark Ritter wrote:



>

>

>Dave,

>

>Do you think a fully functioning AOA instrument is a good safety warning 

>device and an alternative to the stall warning device supplied by Vans 

>that would avoid a lawsuit?

>

>When approaching a stall in my RV-10 a nice lady inside my AOA reminds me 

>"angle-angle-push- push".

>

>Mark

>N410MR

>

>

>>From: Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com>

>>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>>Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

>>Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 10:27:55 -0500

>>

>>

>>

>>Hi "MauleDriver",

>>

>>The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the installation of 

>>the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be done with the tank 

>>installed, unless of course the balloon leak test discovers a leak, then 

>>the tank might need to be removed to locate the leak.  Here is what I 

>>would do if I were doing it again:

>>

>>First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are 

>>found, I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect for 

>>proper torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.: no 

>>removal.

>>

>>Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity to 

>>install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this forum 

>>before that the access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of 

>>the wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.  I added 3/4 x 3/4 

>>stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal one(s) need to have the 

>>web fluted to give the flange the proper curvature.  All quite easy to do 

>>but time consuming.  However after it is all done, access to the sensor 

>>switch (the purpose of the panel in the first place) is difficult for all 

>>but the longest, skinniest arms with full swivel joints at the wrists, 

>>etc.  Some have opted to, or advised to, leave out the stall horn.  This 

>>is my third homebuilt aircraft and the first with any sort of stall or 

>>AOA sensor of any kind.  I thought seriously about leaving it out.  

>>However, I plan on letting others use this aircraft.  In the event 

>>(heaven forbid) of a serious accident, I can just hear the lawyers 

>>talking about the irresponsibility of leaving out a safety warning device 

>>that was in the plans and recommended by the manufacturer.  (It's a real 

>>shame frivolous lawsuits have modified responsible and reasonable 

>>behavior-but so be it).

>>Any way, so what would I do?

>>I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to near 

>>the next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on the 

>>outboard side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the switch for 

>>maintenance through the removed wing tip.  (Some will argue that the flow 

>>is different outside the flap area-true-but that is the reason for 

>>access-to make the fine tune adjustments).

>>Advantages of this entire approach:

>>No tank removal (if they pass leak test)

>>Easy access to stall warn switch.

>>No cutting into the wing for an access panel.

>>Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).

>>

>>Regards,

>>Dave Lammers

>>RV-6 flying

>>RV-10 coming along

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>MauleDriver wrote:

>>

>>>

>>>

>>>I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I 

>>>should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for leaks, 

>>>ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?

>>>

>>>I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the a 

>>>few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason to 

>>>remove, inspect, and re-install.

>>>

>>>Thanks for comments.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>_________________________________________________________________

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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Well, it looks like I'm going to remove both of them - perhaps the right 

for no particular reason.  However, the fact that a couple of screws 

aren't coming out, I'm glad I'm finding that out now when it's 

relatively easy to fix.



These are my first stripped screw heads - looks like it's time to drill 

and use a screw extractor of some sort on at least one of them.  I've 

never done this before.  Looking at an extractor in Spruce's catalog.  

What are any of you using?

David Maib wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I had problems with a few of the screws not wanting to come out, too. 

 Twisted the head off of one of them. The plans said to remove the 

 tanks, so I did. Have installed the senders, repaired a dent that I 

 put in one leading edge, leak checked, and they are now ready to go 

 back on. However, it is a little easier to finish the stall warning 

 system, wiring, pitot system, etc. with the tanks off. I am also 

 installing SafeAir1 extended range tanks, so the main tanks have to be 

 off for that reason.



 David Maib

 40559

 wings



 do not archive



 On Apr 7, 2007, at 10:41 PM, MauleDriver wrote:



 



 I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I 

 should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for 

 leaks, ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?



 I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the 

 a few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason 

 to remove, inspect, and re-install.



 Thanks for comments.

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

You might try the abrasive stuff like "Screw Grab" sold by, i.a., Avery Tools. $6.00 for half an ounce, which should last quite a while. 

I'm really amazed what a difference it makes!  The various covers in the fuselage had a lot of stuck, probably overtorqued,  screws. I wrecked a couple and sweated a few more before starting to use Screw Grab, had no trouble afterward. Our local experts tell me that valve grinding compound is used for the same purpose, and I vaguely recall that from years ago. If I'd had some I would have tried it instead.



It may be just me, but there seems to be a big difference in quality of interchangeable driver tips. I won't buy anything but the ones Snap On sells, because they work so well for me. Their T-handle ratcheting screwdriver is also a big favorite. 



Seems like most folks have a favorite stuck fastener release fluid, like WD-40, LPS-3 or whatever. The screws in my kit don't ever seem corroded, but if I start having trouble I'll use that stuff on all the screws that remain to be removed .



John Ackerman    40458 QB fuse.

On Apr 8, 2007, at 10:43 AM, MauleDriver wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

Well, it looks like I'm going to remove both of them - perhaps the right for no particular reason.  However, the fact that a couple of screws aren't coming out, I'm glad I'm finding that out now when it's relatively easy to fix.

These are my first stripped screw heads - looks like it's time to drill and use a screw extractor of some sort on at least one of them.  I've never done this before.  Looking at an extractor in Spruce's catalog.  What are any of you using?

	




 [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Lapping compound “Clover” is used by Machine shops to set valves.  We use it in the airline industry to remove overtorqued fasteners.  One drop on the head. It is water soluble too.  

   

John  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ackerman

 Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 2:13 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal  

  

   

You might try the abrasive stuff like "Screw Grab" sold by, i.a., Avery Tools. $6.00 for half an ounce, which should last quite a while.     

   

    

I'm really amazed what a difference it makes!  The various covers in the fuselage had a lot of stuck, probably overtorqued,  screws. I wrecked a couple and sweated a few more before starting to use Screw Grab, had no trouble afterward. Our local experts tell me that valve grinding compound is used for the same purpose, and I vaguely recall that from years ago. If I'd had some I would have tried it instead.  

    

   

    

It may be just me, but there seems to be a big difference in quality of interchangeable driver tips. I won't buy anything but the ones Snap On sells, because they work so well for me. Their T-handle ratcheting screwdriver is also a big favorite.   

    

   

    

Seems like most folks have a favorite stuck fastener release fluid, like WD-40, LPS-3 or whatever. The screws in my kit don't ever seem corroded, but if I start having trouble I'll use that stuff on all the screws that remain to be removed .  

      

   

    

John Ackerman    40458 QB fuse.  

    

   

    

       

On Apr 8, 2007, at 10:43 AM, MauleDriver wrote:  

  



 

     

--> RV10-List message posted by: MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>  

    

   

    

Well, it looks like I'm going to remove both of them - perhaps the right for no particular reason.  However, the fact that a couple of screws aren't coming out, I'm glad I'm finding that out now when it's relatively easy to fix.  

    

   

    

These are my first stripped screw heads - looks like it's time to drill and use a screw extractor of some sort on at least one of them.  I've never done this before.  Looking at an extractor in Spruce's catalog.  What are any of you using?  

  

  

   

  

  [quote]   [b]

Jim Berry

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

For removing stuck fasteners start with a drop of lapping compound and a good screwdriver, like a Klein available in the Electrical dept. at Home Depot. Cheaper and easier to find than Snap-On. If that doesn't work get a set of Alden Drillout Extractors, also from Home Depot. These were recommended in Light Plane Maintenance a while back, and they are amazing. When I follow the Alden instructions, their extractors have never failed to work.



Jim Berry

40482 Finishing

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

When negligence in the use of the dull screwdriver or too little down

force, we resort to a #30 drill bit and then apply a Snap-On 1/8"

extractor.  The truck comes four times a week with a lifetime

replacement policy. We keep a second extractor in our tool box, and set

the other one for replacement. 



That said, it takes about 100 screw heads to wear out the Snap-On.  With

practice you can tell quickly that you are about to strip the head.

Sharp edges on the Phillips and the correct point size make a big

difference.



For many builders, these techniques will not be needed till down the

road when corrosion seals the threads or the head.  Most GA hardware is

stripped by using the wrong tip size or not paying attention.



A teaspoon of lapping compound and a little water in a plastic bottle go

a LONG way.



John



--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

I THINK YOU ARE MISUNDERSTING WHAT SHE IS TELLING YOU...SHE IS SIMPLY SAYING 

YOU ARE A SQUARE TYPE OF GUY. tHE PUSH , PUSH PART IS BETTER LEFT OFFLINE.



DO NOT ARCHIVE

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 10:58:56 -0500






Dave,



Do you think a fully functioning AOA instrument is a good safety warning 

device and an alternative to the stall warning device supplied by Vans that 

would avoid a lawsuit?



When approaching a stall in my RV-10 a nice lady inside my AOA reminds me 

"angle-angle-push- push".



Mark

N410MR





>From: Dave Lammers <davelammers(at)mchsi.com>

>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>Subject: Re: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

>Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 10:27:55 -0500

>

>

>

>Hi "MauleDriver",

>

>The plans have you remove at least the left tank for the installation of 

>the stall warning sensor switch.  All else can be done with the tank 

>installed, unless of course the balloon leak test discovers a leak, then 

>the tank might need to be removed to locate the leak.  Here is what I 

>would do if I were doing it again:

>

>First, I would leak test with the tanks installed.  If no leaks are found, 

>I would install the quantity sensors and fittings, inspect for proper 

>torque of the screws, and be done with the tanks, i.e.: no removal.

>

>Secondly, the plans location of the stall warn sensor and necessity to 

>install an access panel is nonsense.  It has been stated on this forum 

>before that the access panel is poorly located due to the curvature of the 

>wing.  If you install per plans, it will oil-can.  I added 3/4 x 3/4 

>stiffener angles and of course the longitudinal one(s) need to have the 

>web fluted to give the flange the proper curvature.  All quite easy to do 

>but time consuming.  However after it is all done, access to the sensor 

>switch (the purpose of the panel in the first place) is difficult for all 

>but the longest, skinniest arms with full swivel joints at the wrists, 

>etc.  Some have opted to, or advised to, leave out the stall horn.  This 

>is my third homebuilt aircraft and the first with any sort of stall or AOA 

>sensor of any kind.  I thought seriously about leaving it out.  However, I 

>plan on letting others use this aircraft.  In the event (heaven forbid) of 

>a serious accident, I can just hear the lawyers talking about the 

>irresponsibility of leaving out a safety warning device that was in the 

>plans and recommended by the manufacturer.  (It's a real shame frivolous 

>lawsuits have modified responsible and reasonable behavior-but so be it).

>Any way, so what would I do?

>I would transfer the location of the stall warning pilot holes to near the 

>next to outboard rib and mount the stall warning switch on the outboard 

>side of that rib.  This allows easy access to the switch for maintenance 

>through the removed wing tip.  (Some will argue that the flow is different 

>outside the flap area-true-but that is the reason for access-to make the 

>fine tune adjustments).

>Advantages of this entire approach:

>No tank removal (if they pass leak test)

>Easy access to stall warn switch.

>No cutting into the wing for an access panel.

>Lots of time saved for meaningful construction (or flying).

>

>Regards,

>Dave Lammers

>RV-6 flying

>RV-10 coming along

>

>

>MauleDriver wrote:

>

>>

>>

>>I'm starting work on my QB wings and trying to think through whether I 

>>should remove the tanks to inspect, install the senders, test for leaks, 

>>ease access for other parts, etc.    Any comments?

>>

>>I started removing one and immediately ran into some problems with the a 

>>few screws not coming out easily.  That alone may be a good reason to 

>>remove, inspect, and re-install.

>>

>>Thanks for comments.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>



_________________________________________________________________

Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. 

http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3

flywrights(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Dave,

  

 You made an important distinction that shouldn't go unheeded.  First, we have a kit manufacturer, and then we have an airplane manufacturer.  Everyone, please feel free to manufacture your own airplane with pieces provided by the kit manufacturer, whether that airplane includes a stall warning tab or an AoA system.  The kit manufacturer is saving you time and money; you get to adjust to suit your desires.  

  

 I'm no lawyer, but I do believe that the airplane manufacturer will always bear more liability than the kit manufacturer, especially if the airplane manufacturer strays from the kit manufacturer's design.

  

 Rob Wright

 #392

 stuck trying to decently spray the interior

 ---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: QB Wing Fuel Tank Removal

Sorry so late to reply.  Just got back from Vaca with

almost 500 emails to catch up on.



I can report that this access hatch will almost certainly

be an oil-canning problem for many/most builders.  I had to

add stiffners in both directions around my access hole

too.  Not a big deal, but just make sure when you buy a kit

section to buy a couple of 6 or 8' lengths of aluminum

angle for things like this.  I'm not unhappy with the stall

switch.  I personally wouldn't need the voice warning on an

AOA, as the EFIS already calls out "Stall" for you.  When

the system is set up right, it can fairly accurately read

a stall warning within 2-3kts of actual stall speed.  I leave

mine set slightly higher, and it is calculated based on

G-loading and such.  But the buzzer is still there...not

so much a necessity, but an option.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

William Curtis wrote:

[quote] 

 <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

 

 Dave,

 

 Looking at your signature, I see you are not flying yet.  I don't

 recall any message from flying RV-10 owners that there was oil

 canning of this access panels.  Where did you here this?   I don't

 think they would oil can any more than the un-reinforced 0.025 wing

 skins to which they are attached.  Just curious since I have access

 panels in both wings and they did not require any unusual methods to

 get them in good and tight in the standard location.  Also access to

 the stall warning mechanism and the aux fuel fittings was fine from

 the access panel in the standard location.  Your 3/4 X 3/4 stiffeners

 while definitely making the area stronger, may be another case of

 solving a problem that does not exist.

 

 Even if I did not add the stock Van's stall warning, I would still

 install the access panel so you can install it at a later date,

 should you or the next owner change their minds.

 

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/07Wings/wings45.html

 

 William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

 

 ------

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