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frank(at)kusserow-online.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Dear Europhobians,

has anyone experience with outside paint other than white? My certified POH 

says "must be painted white". I know some other composite aircraft that are 

not painted white. Reason is, that I would like to repaint my classic mono 

(white now) in yellow after installing few mods. The Katana e.g. has a 

colour indicator to show the heat of the structure between the seats. Does 

anyone have this kind of warning device installed?



Regards from Germany,



Frank

DEJWD, Classic Mono 912UL

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Hi Frank,



There is the story of a white Europa with a dark blue stripe down the

centerline of the fuselage.  On a hot day in Phoenix the heat on the

stripe warped the fuselage sides.

A Europa builder here in California had his painter put a light grey

primer on a control surface and left it in the sun to measure the

temperature.  They left it out too long and it was warped by the heat.

The only composites I know of that are not painted white are the carbon

fiber ones, which for some reason are not as sensitive to heat as the

glass fiber ones.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

A135/N135TD



--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: A/C paint other than white

I have an aircraft painted in pearl white, which is sort of off-white.

Temperature measurements on colour swatches prior to using this scheme 

showed that the pearl white was 2C warmer than pure white in very clear-air, 

noon summer (end of May actually) sunshine (at about 52 deg latitude).



I also have a temperature probe under the roof skin. This has not recorded 

any alarming temperatures; certainly all less than 40C in European usage. 

Actually, the cockpit gets warmest by means of insolation through the 

windows if left parked in the sun.



Duncan McF.

---

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: Re: A/C paint other than white

Not just carbon fiber, Terry,



Any parts that have been baked in an oven in order to raise the glass

transition temperature will have a higher temperature tolerance and

can therefore tolerate a color other than white.



I don't think the old DA20 series had this treatment of its fuse, but

all modern VLJs, Cirrus, Columbia(Cessna) do, in an oven big enough

for the whole fuse and wings.



The Europa kit is not heat treated.  If you paint it dark, it will MELT

(if there is sufficient heat and infrared)!

_________________
Ira N224XS

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: A/C paint other than white

I believe the name BABY BLUE says it all for one europa, its all about temp

really, if the colour you

plan on using doesnt vary in temp too much it should be ok. I too am looking

at yellow, but it is a very

light bright yellow, not quite a pastel colour, the temp of it in full sun

only differs by about 3 degrees C.

Now IMHO if 3 degrees is going to make a difference then its too dam hot to

be flying anyway, and the white

plane next to it will probably start to melt as well. In reference to the

phoenix A/C i would suggest that differential expansion was the issue, with

the dark areas heating and expanding faster than the white ones. I have seen

large sheets of glass shatter after they were tinted with a metalic film and

one portion of the glass

saw a shadow the rest of the sheet didnt see, more expansion on the sun

exposed bits than the shaded bits

and boom there goes a half inch sheet of toughened saftey glass.



--

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

There is a yellow one here in Colombia which so far has suffered no visible

ill effects

WIll



--

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

On any given summer day, the temp difference between the white and 

darkest of the three blues on Baby Blue's wings is only about 5 degrees 

F.  The darkest blue is just a little darker than what I'd call pastel. 

  Temps were measured with a digital, laser thermometer...



Jeff



craig bastin wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I believe the name BABY BLUE says it all for one europa, its all about temp

 really, if the colour you

 plan on using doesnt vary in temp too much it should be ok. I too am looking

 at yellow, but it is a very

 light bright yellow, not quite a pastel colour, the temp of it in full sun

 only differs by about 3 degrees C.

 Now IMHO if 3 degrees is going to make a difference then its too dam hot to

 be flying anyway, and the white

 plane next to it will probably start to melt as well. In reference to the

 phoenix A/C i would suggest that differential expansion was the issue, with

 the dark areas heating and expanding faster than the white ones. I have seen

 large sheets of glass shatter after they were tinted with a metalic film and

 one portion of the glass

 saw a shadow the rest of the sheet didnt see, more expansion on the sun

 exposed bits than the shaded bits

 and boom there goes a half inch sheet of toughened saftey glass.

 

 --

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

John Hurst gave me my first ride in a yellow mono, at Lakeland, FL.  No 

problem with heat, and Florida can get hot...



Jeff



William Daniell wrote:

[quote] 

 

 There is a yellow one here in Colombia which so far has suffered no visible

 ill effects

 WIll

 

 --

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: A/C paint other than white

Hey Guys,



Its simple physical chemistry. FRP materials like fiberglass layups

have a property of softening at a specific temperature known as Tg.

Tg is sensitive to the particular temperature exposure history of that

piece of layup.  If you heatsoak a part in an oven for a few hours at 175F

then the Tg will become about 175, up from the base Tg of Eglass/

Aeropoxy of about 150 or so (I dont have my ref materials here at work).



Colors other than white absorb more heat, no doubt about it.

If your bird is sitting at Kingman AZ, or Tucson, there is a good chance it

will droop on a summer day on the ramp.  If you want to take chances,

well that why we call it experimental!  I like safety margins where I can

have them.

_________________
Ira N224XS

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

The information I have for Aeropoxy shows a glass transition temperature of

198 degrees F with only a room temperature cure (over a period of time). It

goes on to say that slightly better results can even be had by adding high

temp cures. It appears that a high temp cure is not needed for Aeropoxy...



Greg Fuchs A050






Hey Guys,



Its simple physical chemistry. FRP materials like fiberglass layups

have a property of softening at a specific temperature known as Tg.

Tg is sensitive to the particular temperature exposure history of that

piece of layup.  If you heatsoak a part in an oven for a few hours at 175F

then the Tg will become about 175, up from the base Tg of Eglass/

Aeropoxy of about 150 or so (I dont have my ref materials here at work).

--------

Ira N224XS

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Frank

  

 When Europa had a sales center at the Lakeland Airport in Florida USA the factory monowheel demonstrator had dark blue paint on the bottom half of the fuselage. They were testing to see if the dark colors would affect the fiberglass. Over a short period of time the bottom of the fuselage started getting deformed enough that you could see ripples in the bottom of the fuselage. This was where the blue paint had been applied. The blue paint was removed and the bottom was painted white...There were no further problems after the bottom was painted white.

  

 Two things to consider, In Florida, the summer's average daytime temperatures are in the high ninety's. But also consider that the asphalt was black and the ground temperatures on the ramp were probably in the region of 150 degrees or higher.The monowheel fuselage was setting less than two feet off the asphalt for reference. I just don't remember the actual range of tremperatures, as this took place almost 9 years ago.

  

 If you live in a moderate temperature area I don't think there would be a problem with different colors of paint. Here in Florida we paint them all white.

  

 Jim Brown

 Monowheel XS N398JB



--- On Wed, 1/21/09, Frank Kusserow <frank(at)kusserow-online.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Frank Kusserow <frank(at)kusserow-online.com>

Subject: A/C paint other than white

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 7:11 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Frank Kusserow"

<frank(at)kusserow-online.com>



Dear Europhobians,

has anyone experience with outside paint other than white? My certified POH

says "must be painted white". I know some other composite aircraft

that are not painted white. Reason is, that I would like to repaint my classic

mono (white now) in yellow after installing few mods. The Katana e.g. has a

colour indicator to show the heat of the structure between the seats. Does

anyone have this kind of warning device installed?



Regards from Germany,



Frank

DEJWD, Classic Mono 912UL 





	
	


          [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

rampil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -The Europa kit is not heat treated.  If you paint it dark, it will MELT

 (if there is sufficient heat and infrared)!



 --------

 Ira N224XS

   

Ira
	


not strictly true, the early ones were only heated to around 50 deg 

C.Not enough. Later ones are hotter.

Graham

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: A/C paint other than white

OK, if we want to get picky, lets recall first that the major body parts

are molded/vacuumed FRP, not Aeropoxy/Fiberglass components.

So while the Tg for Aeropoxy is indeed just over 190F, it is not the

critical, softening component of an XS wing.  I don't recall anyone

ever specifying the Tg for the molded components, but I specifically

remember Andy, Russell, and Bob actively promoting only white finishes.

I remember when "YellowBird" came back from the paint shop and we

were all agast and predicting problems with it for Florida flying.



Second, it is not the direct sunlight on the upper surfaces which

are most vulnerable.  Try instead measuring the temperature on the

undersurface of the wing when that wing is parked over hot asphalt

tarmac and radiating long infrared like a convection oven! Say like

the ramp where I did my 40 hours of test flight at Zepherhills, Florida,

where I did many hours shirtless in the cabin in August in temps

exceeding 90F in flight and much hotter on the ground.



The droops I've seen come from below, not above.



As I said above, in the US, we have "experimental" aircraft and we can

do what we want basically.  On the other hand, I think it reasonable

that new builders be exposed to industry standard conventional wisdom, 

based on experience and bad outcomes, and not just on an anecdote

or two.



There once was a bright red Lancair..........

_________________
Ira N224XS

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

On Jan 21, 2009, at 4:37 PM, rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   There once was a bright red Lancair..........


	


..at least one...I've seen a beauty at the Arlington, WA airshow,  

still flying as far as I know ...my understanding is that the pre-preg  

materials in the Lancair should not be equated w/ those used in the  

VariEases' Quickies, and Europae, but I don't have any technical data  

at hand to confirm that understanding.



Fred

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: A/C paint other than white

Hi Fred,



That was the "second" red one, after the first melted!



Prepreg material is no different in temps of having a Tg, 

Lancair kits these days are baked.



Another interesting point to consider is that the physical droop is only

one aspect of approaching Tg.  You might consider the situation at

Oshkosh for the lucky few parked on an asphalt ramp or taxiway at the

end of July during the airshow.  Departing with a high g climbing

turn as people are want to do, and FRP wings softened by heat

could lead to interesting consequences.

_________________
Ira N224XS

charleslaverty(at)googlem
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Hi Graham

                    Does this mean no flight to sun & fun again this year?

                                                            Chas.

---

david.stanbridge(at)swift
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Tg is one thing. Practicalities are another. I have a Slingsby Firefly that

is an early GRP aircraft. Last year I know of a owner who paid many

thousands of dollars to have a different colour tested to ensure that the UV

absorption did not exceed the capabilities of the material. In the end there

were compromises on the colour and the places that it could be applied.



This is a SERIOUS issue that requires SERIOUS attention. The Firefly for

instance is restricted to aerobatics below a surface temperature, which is a

gauge not always fitted.



For the Europa different colours and its impact on UV absorption has not

been comprehensively tested. For sake of safety I would not go there without

it being proved for the conditions in which it will be operated. 



Dave



David Stanbridge

 

Swift Technology Group Limited

www.swifttg.com



(T) +44 (0)1603 262301

(M) +44 (0)7725 655600

david.stanbridge(at)swifttg.com

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Just a curiosity question.Since I just again completed reading on my Becker 250 watt mode C transponder installation instructions, it again reminded me I can now fly to 50,000 feet and supposedly be seen by ATC.If I wish to replace the wimpy 1 stage air cooled turbocharge on my 914 with something "more capable" to test this 50,000 foot capability (perhaps may need to use long wings, wave and a carry with me some oxidizer) at what temperature (low temperature) do I need to start worrying about my Europa airframe that is painted white to keep the sun from heating it?I think I remember some mfg. perhaps it was Slingsby, only has a lower limit of 20F??Should I limit my engine off outside loop attempts to 20F during my first test flight (wouldn't want to hurt engine by sucking air with it running)?There are 4 questions:1) What is a realistic lower temperature limit for Europa XS Monowheel with short wings?2) Same question as #1 but with long wings?3) What is a realistic upper altitude limit for Europa XS Monowheel with short wings? (not pilot but aeroplane)4) Same question as #3 but with long wings?Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: Re: A/C paint other than white

Hey Ron,



It was a stock 914 you bought, not a Predator variant right?



I was flying in your neighborhood last week with an OAT of -15C at

8000 msl.



As for top altitudes, I do not recall seeing a published number, but that

should be part of your flight test program. Most people call it quits

at the DA where ROCâ‰¤100fpm.  The true top is where Vs = Vy and

ROC is =0, but given that it take infinite time to reach, and the tank 

holds less than 3 hours at max power, you will not get there.



In my test flying with a 912s, at 11000 DA, I was still climbing at > 400 fpm, and I did not push further. Based on the rate of climb decay, I'll

guess the service ceiling for my plane is around 14k DA

_________________
Ira N224XS

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: A/C paint other than white

Hi Ira Thx. for the reply.As far as altitude ceiling I was thinking there may be some limit on something that may perhaps expand and give problems with airframe?? Extra dosage of UV that paint may not be able to effectively block? Something unique to long wings that is not happy at very high altitude? For certain the bags of potato chips in the cockpit will expire before the airframe does from lower pressure at altitude. Perhaps with 914 that still has the ability to make some BTUs at altitude compared to a richer running normally aspirated  912S, something under the cowl over temps due to the lesser amount of air molecules in the same volumetric flow?I have a stock 914 except for intercooler and ability to lean, I would imagine with long wings, Airmaster and leaned, FL210 is attainable? If wave assisted much higher.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

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