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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26477
Location: Livermore CA USA
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 Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Dear Listers,
Looking at the requirements for IFR certification of the RV-8, it looks like the only thing I don't have is an "alternate static source". This seems like it would be as simple as adding a "T" valve in the 1/4 neoprem static air tube that goes along under the left hand canopy rail.
Does anyone have any suggestions on something I could just cut the tube and stick in line with a little thumb screw to switch between the fuselage or cabin source?
I'm assuming this will meet the requirement?
Thanks!
PS - Attached are a couple of pictures from Taxi-testing and Magnetometer calibration this weekend. Cool?
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
Status: Final Bits/Inspection/Test Flight
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator |
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26477
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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At 03:53 PM 4/19/2010 Monday, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Matt, cut the tubing, insert a 'T' with a short stub of tubing. Put a plug in the tube of a type that you can pull out easily if needed.
Simple, light, and inexpensive.
Linn
Matt Dralle wrote:
>Dear Listers,
>
>Looking at the requirements for IFR certification of the RV-8, it looks like the only thing I don't have is an "alternate static source". This seems like it would be as simple as adding a "T" valve in the 1/4 neoprem static air tube that goes along under the left hand canopy rail.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions on something I could just cut the tube and stick in line with a little thumb screw to switch between the fuselage or cabin source?
>
>I'm assuming this will meet the requirement?
>
>Thanks!
|
What a great idea, Linn! Thanks. Here's what I did tonight including a couple of pictures...
I added a small "T" Nylon fitting in the 1/4" tube for static air just in front of the instrument panel under the left cockpit rail. I cut a short piece of 1/4" tubing and filled it with black RTV and then put a piece of heat shrink tubing over it to form a handle. The whole thing fits nicely under the cockpit rail and from the pilot's position is just barely visible, yet can be accessed easy. In the event that icing conditions occur, the fitting can be unscrewed and the plug removed for cabin venting.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: Final Bits/Inspection/Test Flight
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Matt Dralle
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Not sure where you are finding this "requirement". #1. There is no IFR
certification of OBAM aircraft. #2.You only have to meet the
requirements of 91.205, para a, b, c and d. There is no mention of
alternate static source in that FAR. You can't fly IFR until you
complete Phase I and your operating limitations will state after Phase
I that for night VFR you have to meet 91.205 C and for IFR meet 91.205
D. It is up to you, the builder to decide if you need anything else.
If your static system is at all like the RV-10, with a port on each
side of the tailcone, and you incorporated an uphill section to the
top of the tailcone to join the lines from each port, there really is
no need for an alternate static source. Mooney used the same design
and through the 1960s had no alternate source and no drain. Only after
Part 23 was issued did they start incorporating those features. IMHO,
just adds complexity and potential for leaks. Perhaps I would think
differently if you were based outdoors in Oregon or NJ, but hangared
in most parts of the country, you will almost never get any water into
the system.
Kelly
#40866
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Dear Listers,
Looking at the requirements for IFR certification of the RV-8, it looks like the only thing I don't have is an "alternate static source". This seems like it would be as simple as adding a "T" valve in the 1/4 neoprem static air tube that goes along under the left hand canopy rail.
Does anyone have any suggestions on something I could just cut the tube and stick in line with a little thumb screw to switch between the fuselage or cabin source?
I'm assuming this will meet the requirement?
Thanks!
PS - Attached are a couple of pictures from Taxi-testing and Magnetometer calibration this weekend. Cool?
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
Status: Final Bits/Inspection/Test Flight
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:43 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Matt,
Really enjoy your videos. Nice work.
Here's an interesting idea for an alternate source:
http://www.rv7blog.com/2008/11/09/alternate-static-air-valve. Safeair
has an alternate source kit, but it seems it would be pretty easy to do
yourself: http://www.safeair1.com/PS_1.htm near bottom of page.
-Sean #40303
On 4/19/10 3:50 PM, Matt Dralle wrote:
| Quote: | Dear Listers,
Looking at the requirements for IFR certification of the RV-8, it looks like the only thing I don't have is an "alternate static source". This seems like it would be as simple as adding a "T" valve in the 1/4 neoprem static air tube that goes along under the left hand canopy rail.
Does anyone have any suggestions on something I could just cut the tube and stick in line with a little thumb screw to switch between the fuselage or cabin source?
I'm assuming this will meet the requirement?
Thanks!
PS - Attached are a couple of pictures from Taxi-testing and Magnetometer calibration this weekend. Cool?
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
Status: Final Bits/Inspection/Test Flight
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:43 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Hello Matt,
simple, still unscrewing in icing condition would not be my thing.
In 2007 I've posted that once:
hopefully attached, what I did (on a Glastar) a Curtis Drain Valve
CCA-1550 together with a T and two elbows to fit the static line.
And I did an inflight check, error is 4 KIAS to high indication.
br Werner
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:20 am Post subject: Re: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Try one of these miniature air control valves from McMaster-Carr, Clippard, or AMR.
John
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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#40572 Phase One complete in 2011 |
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Charles Usery
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Ferndale, Washington
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:07 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Kelly,
You may be right on the requirements but I just had the Seattle MIDO come and inspect my RV-10 and on the list of items they wanted to see was the Alternate Static Source.
Since I had this installed we did not discuss if it was optional/required. Just wanted all to know that these FAA inspectors were looking for it.
Charles Usery
N719PD
Do not Archive
--- On Mon, 4/19/10, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting...
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 8:37 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)>
Not sure where you are finding this "requirement". #1. There is no IFR
certification of OBAM aircraft. #2.You only have to meet the
requirements of 91.205, para a, b, c and d. There is no mention of
alternate static source in that FAR. You can't fly IFR until you
complete Phase I and your operating limitations will state after Phase
I that for night VFR you have to meet 91.205 C and for IFR meet 91.205
D. It is up to you, the builder to decide if you need anything else.
If your static system is at all like the RV-10, with a port on each
side of the tailcone, and you incorporated an uphill section to the
top of the tailcone to join the lines from each port, there really is
no need for an alternate static source. Mooney used the same design
and through the 1960s had no alternate source and no drain. Only after
Part 23 was issued did they start incorporating those features. IMHO,
just adds complexity and potential for leaks. Perhaps I would think
differently if you were based outdoors in Oregon or NJ, but hangared
in most parts of the country, you will almost never get any water into
the system.
Kelly
#40866
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Dear Listers,
Looking at the requirements for IFR certification of the RV-8, it looks like the only thing I don't have is an "alternate static source". This seems like it would be as simple as adding a "T" valve in the 1/4 neoprem static air tube that goes along under the left hand canopy rail.
Does anyone have any suggestions on something I could just cut the tube and stick in line with a little thumb screw to switch between the fuselage or cabin source?
I'm assuming this will meet the requirement?
Thanks!
PS - Attached are a couple of pictures from Taxi-testing and Magnetometer calibration this weekend. Cool?
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
Status: FSearch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, ; --> http://forums.sp; - List Contribution Web Sbsp; > http://www.======================
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[quote][b]
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_________________
CR Usery
RV-10 N719PD (flying)
Ferndale, Washington
38W |
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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I appreciate the data point. I think we all know that FAA inspectors are not very familiar with OBAM requirements. Has been discussed many times that there is no IFR certification of OBAM aircraft. I'd still like to see where it is required.
I suspect that the vast majority of RVs are given airworthiness inspection by DARs that are more familiar with what is and isn't required. Tail cone static ports are not exposed to impact in flight icing. Now some aircraft that have a single static port forward of the wing might have an issue, like some Cessnas. Perhaps it is a good question to pose to EAA.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:06 AM, C.R. Usery <drrx60(at)yahoo.com (drrx60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote] Kelly,
You may be right on the requirements but I just had the Seattle MIDO come and inspect my RV-10 and on the list of items they wanted to see was the Alternate Static Source.
Since I had this installed we did not discuss if it was optional/required. Just wanted all to know that these FAA inspectors were looking for it.
Charles Usery
N719PD
Do not Archive
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: | I appreciate the data point. I think we all know that FAA inspectors are
not very familiar with OBAM requirements. Has been discussed many times
that there is no IFR certification of OBAM aircraft.
I've been researching IFR use of non-TSOd equipment and am just as
|
confused as when I started out. I believe that even if you are OBAM,
you are still subject to a transponder/altimeter certification every two
years.
| Quote: | I'd still like to see where it is required.
I don't think an alternate static port (in the cabin, as it were) is a
|
requirement. I also don't think it's on the list of the things a DAR is
supposed to look for.
| Quote: | I suspect that the vast majority of RVs are given airworthiness
inspection by DARs that are more familiar with what is and isn't
required. Tail cone static ports are not exposed to impact in flight
icing. Now some aircraft that have a single static port forward of the
wing might have an issue, like some Cessnas. Perhaps it is a good
question to pose to EAA.
EAA has a package just for this purpose. It outlines what you need. It
|
doesn't, AFAIK, say what you DON'T need. I've known DARs that just ask
questions .... because they think these things need to be there ......
and if there isn't an answer that they like they SUGGEST that you add
the widget. I've not heard of a DAR failing an inspection because the
item in question wasn't there or on the list of required widgets.
YMMV
Linn
| Quote: |
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:06 AM, C.R. Usery <drrx60(at)yahoo.com
<mailto:drrx60(at)yahoo.com>> wrote:
Kelly,
You may be right on the requirements but I just had the Seattle MIDO
come and inspect my RV-10 and on the list of items they wanted to
see was the Alternate Static Source.
Since I had this installed we did not discuss if it was
optional/required. Just wanted all to know that these FAA inspectors
were looking for it.
Charles Usery
N719PD
Do not Archive
*
*
|
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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:48 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Now that I think about it, I don't think there is even a requirement for
Alternate Static even on the certified airplanes.
I may be talking about something I don't know much about, so there is my
disclaimer. But OBAM aircraft flown IFR have to meet the same standards
as certified IFR airplanes.
This is done by the DAR through some creative finger pointing that says
something to the effect of, "After completion of phase I flight testing,
unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in
accordance with part 91.205. this aircraft is to be operated under day
VFR."
That means your airplane is a VFR/day aircraft and if you want it to be
anything more than VFR/day, it must comply with the minimum equipment
listed in 91.205. 91.205 outlines the light requirements for night
operations and the instrument requirements for IFR operations.
At no point in 91.205 does it make a reference to alternate static air.
But for what it's worth, I'm installing a Clippard valve in mine.
Phil
--
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Yes, transponder and encoder have to meet TSO standards. Encoder may
not be too difficult through FAR 43 Appendix E, but transponder pretty
much will have to have TSO. GPS for IFR has to meet TSO requirements.
Altimeter has to meet same requirements as encoder. Most other
instruments like airspeed and gyros are at your discretion as the
builder. As long as you can fly the assigned clearance accurately with
the instruments you install, I believe you are okay.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Linn Walters
<pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> I appreciate the data point. I think we all know that FAA inspectors are
> not very familiar with OBAM requirements. Has been discussed many times that
> there is no IFR certification of OBAM aircraft.
I've been researching IFR use of non-TSOd equipment and am just as confused
as when I started out. I believe that even if you are OBAM, you are still
subject to a transponder/altimeter certification every two years.
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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It is possible to include a Curtiss valve inside the aircraft that will be opened in the event of a static port icing. I was reminded of this when taxiing to the wash ramp at FFZ. my airspeed read 32 KIAS while taxiing with the static ports taped and pitot cover in place. The EFIS then showed zero when opening the panel valve.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:27 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting...
I appreciate the data point. I think we all know that FAA inspectors are not very familiar with OBAM requirements. Has been discussed many times that there is no IFR certification of OBAM aircraft. I'd still like to see where it is required.
I suspect that the vast majority of RVs are given airworthiness inspection by DARs that are more familiar with what is and isn't required. Tail cone static ports are not exposed to impact in flight icing. Now some aircraft that have a single static port forward of the wing might have an issue, like some Cessnas. Perhaps it is a good question to pose to EAA.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:06 AM, C.R. Usery <drrx60(at)yahoo.com (drrx60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote] Kelly,
You may be right on the requirements but I just had the Seattle MIDO come and inspect my RV-10 and on the list of items they wanted to see was the Alternate Static Source.
Since I had this installed we did not discuss if it was optional/required. Just wanted all to know that these FAA inspectors were looking for it.
Charles Usery
N719PD
Do not Archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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check this valve to the left of the Cheltons.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:27 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting...
I appreciate the data point. I think we all know that FAA inspectors are not very familiar with OBAM requirements. Has been discussed many times that there is no IFR certification of OBAM aircraft. I'd still like to see where it is required.
I suspect that the vast majority of RVs are given airworthiness inspection by DARs that are more familiar with what is and isn't required. Tail cone static ports are not exposed to impact in flight icing. Now some aircraft that have a single static port forward of the wing might have an issue, like some Cessnas. Perhaps it is a good question to pose to EAA.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:06 AM, C.R. Usery <drrx60(at)yahoo.com (drrx60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Kelly,
You may be right on the requirements but I just had the Seattle MIDO come and inspect my RV-10 and on the list of items they wanted to see was the Alternate Static Source.
Since I had this installed we did not discuss if it was optional/required. Just wanted all to know that these FAA inspectors were looking for it.
Charles Usery
N719PD
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fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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hotwheels
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stein(at)steinair.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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I have a quantity of these on order that I'll at some point have on the
website along with the requisite quick connector that screws directly on to
them. We've used those valves on a lot of panels and planes they are slick,
work well and look pretty good. Anyway, it'll be a couple weeks, but we'll
have them sooner or later!
Cheers,
Stein
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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What do people think of this idea:
I was thinking of permanently leaving my backup (Dynon D-6 most likely) instruments on alternate (cabin) static pressure, and have no "alternate static" valve on the main instruments (most likely GRT).
Yes, they would always slightly disagree with the main instruments. But a static blockage would also be immediately obvious.
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Bob Turner
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:06 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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This would work .... but why have instrumentation that 'disagrees'.
It's like a dead watch .... accurate time twice a day.
How come you're worried about your static ports becoming blocked, but
haven't addressed a blocked pitot??? Both are subject to ice/water
intrusion ..... but proper plumbing inside the fuse/wing keep that
problem down to a minimum.
I'd put a simple mod to the static line like Matt did.
Linn
Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
What do people think of this idea:
I was thinking of permanently leaving my backup (Dynon D-6 most likely) instruments on alternate (cabin) static pressure, and have no "alternate static" valve on the main instruments (most likely GRT).
Yes, they would always slightly disagree with the main instruments. But a static blockage would also be immediately obvious.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295126#295126
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: Check Valve For Static System Cabin Venting... |
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I have yet to hear of a mechanism for both static ports to get blocked
at the same time. Even with driving rain followed by freezing, only
one side would get blocked, Perhaps if you got mud daubers in both
sides. Blockage should be obvious before or shortly after lift off,
with airspeed being way off. If it makes you feel better, your plan
certainly is a way to always have alternate source of info, but might
drive you crazy with differences in airspeed and altitude.
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
| Quote: |
What do people think of this idea:
I was thinking of permanently leaving my backup (Dynon D-6 most likely) instruments on alternate (cabin) static pressure, and have no "alternate static" valve on the main instruments (most likely GRT).
Yes, they would always slightly disagree with the main instruments. But a static blockage would also be immediately obvious.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295126#295126
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
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