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aluminum verses composite

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norton(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: aluminum verses composite

I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?).  

However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was 

for sale.  (The builder had died).  This project is a composite plane 

and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours.  I have not 

seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601.  My 

question is this?  Has anyone worked on both metal and composite?  What 

are the advantages and disadvantages of each?  I realize this is a 

Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have 

decided that is the way to go.  At 59, I suspect this will be the only 

plane I'll have.  I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much 

experience in that area either.  I would assess my building skills as 

well above average and have space and tools to build about anything.  I 

would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their 

project.

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: aluminum verses composite

Some of the down-sides to composite construction are the need for a

temperature-controlled space to build in where fumes won't bother someone

else. Also the skills take longer to acquire for a klutz like me. Composite

planes look prettier but a well designed and built metal plane can be just

as light.



One side point to think about. The FWF package for the XL and a Corvair is

well developed with the nose bowl and motor mount available. If you want to

use a Corvair in the Vision you will need to do a lot of the development

yourself (although I bet you could make William's nose bowl work on the

Vision). I don't know the Vision's numbers but the Corvair may also not be

suitable.



-- Craig

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agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: aluminum verses composite

METAL

work on it anywhere (no stink)

few special tools

health hazards:  metal cuts

fast planes or STOL

clean the shop by sweeping up the cutoffs and rivet mandrels

COMPOSITE

temperature criticle shop

more special tools

health hazards:  epoxy sensitivity,  fiberglass cuts and slivers

usually fast planes ie. long runways=hanger rent

clean the shop by grinding the drips off the floor



do not archive

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: aluminum verses composite

BTW: you are really looking at two very different planes. The XL is an LSA

while Vne on the Vision is 207 mph. The Vision is a new design with only a

few flying while there are hundreds of XLs flying. You should decide what

kind of builder and pilot you are and what "missions" you will be flying.

*Then* choose a plane.



-- Craig

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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: aluminum verses composite

Jim , there are many considerations for Aluminium over Composite. I'm

only going to touch on three, the listers may be able to provide the

several hundred or more other issues. 

Composite requires humidity and temperature control to be exact during

the whole process; this can sometimes be a problematic situation. 

 

In an accident situation I have seen where a composite ,which I thought

did not land particularly hard come apart totally and all shards of

glass became daggers into the occupants. This should have easily been a

walk away incident but ....well you get the picture, glass fibers in a

situation can be deadly.



My NUMBER  1 reason for not building a fiberglass plane is the itch

factor, every night you go to bed scratching, I have woken up several

mornings red and swollen from glass fibers, wife has also woken up in

similar shape and she wasn't in the workshop. Precautions can be made to

eliminate the issue, but in metal planes it is a non factor. The only

thing I brought to bed in my metal plane was a completed Rudder ! Wife

was not impressed ! You would think she would have expected the

Stabilizer ! Nope it was couch time once again !



 



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com



--

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jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: aluminum verses composite

Subject: Fw: aluminum verses composite

Great post... (BUT I did add a few things)

KABONG Do Not Archive HRII N561FS & Corvette driver

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 FROM: Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron Gustafson" 

 <agustafson(at)chartermi.net>



 METAL

 work on it anywhere (no stink)

 few special tools

 health hazards:  metal cuts & cleco cramps

 fast planes or STOL

 clean the shop by sweeping up the cutoffs and rivet mandrels (once a week 

 ??)

 paint it any color

 park it outside option

 COMPOSITE

 temperature critical shop

 more special tools

 health hazards:  epoxy sensitivity,  fiberglass cuts and slivers = ITCH

 usually fast planes ie. long paved runways

 vaccum up the "powder" daily (unless you like the Peanuts "Pig Pen" look 

 as you walk thru the shop)

 clean the shop by grinding the drips off the floor

 paint choices..: White, off-white & egg shell

 gotta have a hanger

 AND the 3 S's....Sanding, sanding & SANDING



                           Original post:
	


I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?).

However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was

for sale.  (The builder had died).  This project is a composite plane

and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours.  I have not

seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601.  My

question is this?  Has anyone worked on both metal and composite?  What

are the advantages and disadvantages of each?  I realize this is a

Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have

decided that is the way to go.  At 59, I suspect this will be the only

plane I'll have.  I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much

experience in that area either.  I would assess my building skills as

well above average and have space and tools to build about anything.  I

would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their

project.

 	  Quote:

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pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: aluminum verses composite

I would have to emphatically concur with Craig.



" You should decide what kind of builder and pilot you are and what

"missions" you will be flying.

*Then* choose a plane.



-- Craig"



Here is my discussion with Mark Townsend about the plane and pilot thing. I

hope he doesn't mind the posting of our private conversation, but I think it

highlights' the issues to settle before you choose metal or plastic.



		****************************************************



Mark wrote...



Craig, I hope you don't find me prying, but once in awhile I get a feeling

that I need to talk to someone a little more about there decision. I am

getting this feeling right now. Please don't feel I'm prying or in any way

trying to influence your decisions. However, I wish to make you think and

consider your decision a little further. 

Believe it or not I have less of a desire to sell you a plane then I do have

to ensure that you finish a plane and realize your dreams. This is by far

more important to me, I want to ensure that you know everything involved in

your decisions and that you have a clear picture of the adventure in front

of you. 

Would you mind telling me a little more about yourself and the process that

you went through to arrive at your decision of the CH640. 



Once again, if I am invading your privacy or prying too much then I will

hold all comments and questions and do what you ask for specifically.

Nevertheless, I would rather be a friend over a salesman and help in your

decision. It is just who I am, it takes a lot more of my time but on a whole

any customers who I have engaged in this type of conversation have been

grateful. 

Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

My reply to Mark was.....



I have 400 hrs in high wing SELAs, Roughly half in 172, half in 182 turbo

G1000. Recently instrument rated,  I'd like to be able to fly myself and my

wife with a real life load of baggage. Missions to include all weekend and

vacation travel, with possible business travel. Flight to Bahamas, Canada,

AK possible. Aircraft must be capable of operation in IMC. Long haul

comfort, and economical operation.

I have a serious desire to continue flying, but can't afford the costs of

new certified aircraft and their maintenance. I have a hangar at Livingston

county airport, many shop tool including a gas and mig welding, Smithy type

combination lathe/mill, drill press, air compressor, pneumatic tools,

conventional mechanics tools.

I'm a licensed electrician, I work in skilled trades at Ford/Wixom. I was a

radar/fire control technician in the NAVY, where I learned my trade, working

on radar systems/electromechanical drives and military computers. In high

school I took shop classes, and my father was a civil engineer who loved to

teach me concepts of physics and engineering.

I first was thinking of building a Sportsman 2+2, (high wing transition,

very similar to 182 in capability and performance. Recent events in auto

industry have limited future overtime income. More spare time-less income.

So Sportsman really is more expensive, and working with glass is totally

beyond my experience, and it looks like there are a lot of environmental

controls involved in the construction process that increase the cost/effort.

Next I found the 801 after some poking around, not as fast as the Sportsman

but it met my useful load requirements, which is my key parameter for

aircraft capability. After further surfing the zenith pages, I started

looking at he 640. At first I didn't consider a low-wing, but the increase

in cruise speed for a minimum of cost, and the fact that my wife didn't like

the idea of bush-type flying pushed the scale in favor of the 640.

In summary, I felt that the 640 best met my needs for useful load, and the

cost/value/skill/time envelope. Another factor was the ability to have an

aircraft with exactly what equipment/power plant I wanted, within the

airframe limitations of course.

Hope that sheds some light.

Craig Smith



			*************************************************



Lastly, I chose metal construction because there are fewer environmental and

housekeeping issues associated with that construction, as well as IFR

lightning protection. The additional steps to introduce the conductive grid

into the airframe on a composite construction is complicated and would add

significantly to cost/time/expertise to complete.



Hope this is a frame work from which you can make your own decisions.



Craig Smith

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_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: aluminum verses composite

First off , at 59 this will probably NOT be your  last homebuilt, started my first one at 29 and now 61 and have several more  planned when the 701 is finished.

 Have built both alum and glass airplanes and  everything that has been said so far is right on.

 There is glass and there is glass, The Vision is  moldless and will require a bunch, repeat BUNCH of finish work, depending on how  perfect you want the airplane. This may or may not be something you like to  do.  Glass airplanes CAN be as light as alum but RARELY are as it requires  prepreg, ovens,vacuum, carbon, MUCH engineering to get minimum layup schedules  etc.

  

 Having inspected dozens of projects that were  "75-90% finished" I'd say to get someone that's completed a Vision, or at least  to the point your potential project is, to comment on pictures you send him  if time in construction means that much to you. 

 Inspecting someone's glass work  is difficult  at best,  one of the early Glasairs came apart in flight when the  leading edge of the wing opened up due to upper and lower panels being joined  improperly, impossible to determine after the fact, but readily apparent when  the pieces were exposed.

  Having built both, plus rag and tube, I  like aluminum.

 LOW&SLOW   John Bolding

 [quote]   I am about to start the rudder for a scratch    built 601XL (Corvair?).  

However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4    completed Vision homebuilt that was 

for sale.  (The builder had    died).  This project is a composite plane 

and total estimated time    for a scratch build is 3000 hours.  I have not 

seen any estimates of    how long a scratch build is for the 601.  My 

question is this?     Has anyone worked on both metal and composite?  What 

are the    advantages and disadvantages of each?  I realize this is a 

Zenith    (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have 

decided    that is the way to go.  At 59, I suspect this will be the only 

plane    I'll have.  I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much    

experience in that area either.  I would assess my building skills as    

well above average and have space and tools to build about anything.     I 

would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their    

project.



[b]

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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: aluminum verses composite

Depending on the skill of the builder, it is very easy to add a significant

amount of weight to an airframe with improper lay-up. Unless you know how

much the airframe should weigh at a particular point in the building process

it is hard to detect.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



--

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