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Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

I'm working on the rudder kit and have a couple of mistakes that I've  

no idea how to fix.



While installing the nose skin, I drilled a hole in the wrong place  

while trying to attach the skin to the nose rib.  So I have a big  

ugly rivet hole just above where the proper rivet line falls.



I also have 2 or 3 holes that don't line up properly with the tail  

skin/main rudder spar.  (I think the number if suggested clecos to   

order with the tail kit is a bit  low, BTW.  I ordered extras and  

still feel I don't have enough).  I'm guessing that if I re-drill  

these I'll get oversize, oval, holes in the tail skin.



Thanks,

Ron

challgren(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

On May 28, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Ronald Steele wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 .  (I think the number of suggested clecos to  order with the tail  

 kit is a bit  low, BTW.  I ordered extras and still feel I don't  

 have enough).

Ronald:
	




I have 450 clecos at present and still run short on my 701 project as  

rudder, horizontal stabilizer, wings require clecos even as the rear  

fuselage takes a huge number until riveting can begin.



Stan

N701VG

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

When you are not actually working on a particular are (and even sometimes when you are) you don't need to keep a cleco in every hole.

 	  challgren(at)mac.com wrote: 	
		  On May 28, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Ronald Steele wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 .  (I think the number of suggested clecos to  order with the tail  

 kit is a bit  low, BTW.  I ordered extras and still feel I don't  

 have enough).

Ronald:

	




I have 450 clecos at present and still run short on my 701 project as  

rudder, horizontal stabilizer, wings require clecos even as the rear  

fuselage takes a huge number until riveting can begin.



Stan

N701VG

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

Ron-

    Luckily, that's an easy part to fabricate yourself. You'll never be able 

to live with the extra hole, because the rudder's the first thing anyone in 

the know looks at. Flame on, but it's the truth! (Next is the fiberglass 

tips, then the overall rivet lines).

    Prepare yourself now. Order an extra full sheet of .016, .025 and 2'x4' 

(At least 2'x2') sheets of .032 and .040 from ACS or Wick's. Do it in one 

shot now, because it'll save you shipping and you WILL NEED TO FABRICATE 

"OOPS" PARTS!!  Fact of life.

    As far as tools are concerned, there's someone on the list with the 

motto "He who dies with the most tools wins". He's right.

    Good building!



Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

while absolutely true, anyone who has spent their life building sheet metal aircraft will tell you the only cleco that does no good is the one in the hole you are working at that exact time. You absolutely cannot have too many clecos - and they never depreciate - they always are sell able.

do not archive

Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 

When you are not actually working on a particular are (and even sometimes when you are) you don't need to keep a cleco in every hole.

challgren(at)mac.com wrote:

[quote] On May 28, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Ronald Steele wrote:

 > 

 >  .  (I think the number of suggested clecos to  order with the tail  

 >  kit is a bit  low, BTW.  I ordered       Ready for the edge of your seat?  [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/]Check out tonight's top picks[/url] on Yahoo! TV.    [quote][b]

JERICKSON03E(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

In a message dated 5/28/2007 10:42:10 AM Central Daylight Time, rsteele(at)rjsit.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I'm working on the rudder kit and have a couple of mistakes that I've  

no idea how to fix.



While installing the nose skin, I drilled a hole in the wrong place  

while trying to attach the skin to the nose rib.  So I have a big  

ugly rivet hole just above where the proper rivet line falls.



I also have 2 or 3 holes that don't line up properly with the tail  

skin/main rudder spar. 	


 --------

 If it comes to needing to replace skins/spars and so on,, remember that there are a LOT of rudders out there, thanks to the rudder workshops. Someone might be willing to part with a lonesome rudder for a good cause. Never hurts to ask.

  

 Happy Building



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

Ron,



Welcome to the fun of building your own airplane.  You've picked a great company (Zenith) with one of the best lists around to support you.  



Option 1: The idea of buying someone else's rudder, while not a bad one considering how many are just collecting dust, doesn't do much for your education.  If you don't work through these issues on your rudder, you will likely find yourself repeating the same kind of mistakes on your horizontal stabilizer.  Use this as a great learning opportunity and invest some time (and money) into your education as a craftsman.  



Option 2: If there is any way you can attend a Rudder Workshop, I would advise it.  You're going to spend a fair amount of money just replacing parts, so why not start from scratch under the watchful eye of the good folks at Zenith.  I'm sure you would see your confidence soar.



Option 3: If that doesn't work for you, I would encourage you to watch "Metal Working 101 with Rudder Workshop" from www.homebuilthelp.com.  It's a lot cheaper than traveling to Mexico, MO or Cloverdale, CA and you can benefit from some excellent instruction in the privacy of your home.  Then when the replacement parts arrrive, you'll feel better prepared to tackle the job.



Option 4:  Build your rudder (or at least the replacement parts) from scratch.  You have everything you need on the plans you received, and for a very few dollars you can buy the sheet aluminum and make your own parts.  If you decide to go this route (which I have), I would suggest that you watch and re-watch "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft," also from www.homebuilthelp.com.  You might be amazed how easy it is, once the guys from Can-Zac have taken all the mystery out of scratch-building.  



Whatever your choice, know that you will never regret the time you spend educating yourself and remaking each part until you can be absolutely convinced of its airworthiness.  That is time well spent.

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

Ron-

    I second the HH recommendation.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

Thanks to all who responded.  What a great group.



Sigh, sounds like my best bet is to just start over.  The DVDs sound  

like a good idea too.  While I'm quite comfortable with the  

engineering issues, this is the first time I've ever worked with  

sheet metal or used a cleco.  I have to admit I'm not all that  

comfortable with the build quality of the rest of rudder either so a  

new kit is probably in order.   I definitely want to have confidence  

in what I'm building!



As far as fabricating parts,  I feel like it would just take to  

long.  While I do enjoy this sort of work, and I find the process  

fascinating, the point is to have a plane to fly.   I'm in my 50's  

and a student pilot - and I absolutely love flying.   Another couple  

of years of build time for fabrication sounds like forever right  

now.  I may invest in some aluminum stock anyway just to see how it  

goes.



So, anybody have a rudder kit laying around they would like to  

offload ?



Ron



On May 28, 2007, at 6:38 PM, lwinger wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ron,



 Welcome to the fun of building your own airplane.  You've picked a  

 great company (Zenith) with one of the best lists around to support  

 you.



 Option 1: The idea of buying someone else's rudder, while not a bad  

 one considering how many are just collecting dust, doesn't do much  

 for your education.  If you don't work through these issues on your  

 rudder, you will likely find yourself repeating the same kind of  

 mistakes on your horizontal stabilizer.  Use this as a great  

 learning opportunity and invest some time (and money) into your  

 education as a craftsman.



 Option 2: If there is any way you can attend a Rudder Workshop, I  

 would advise it.  You're going to spend a fair amount of money just  

 replacing parts, so why not start from scratch under the watchful  

 eye of the good folks at Zenith.  I'm sure you would see your  

 confidence soar.



 Option 3: If that doesn't work for you, I would encourage you to  

 watch "Metal Working 101 with Rudder Workshop" from  

 www.homebuilthelp.com.  It's a lot cheaper than traveling to  

 Mexico, MO or Cloverdale, CA and you can benefit from some  

 excellent instruction in the privacy of your home.  Then when the  

 replacement parts arrrive, you'll feel better prepared to tackle  

 the job.



 Option 4:  Build your rudder (or at least the replacement parts)  

 from scratch.  You have everything you need on the plans you  

 received, and for a very few dollars you can buy the sheet aluminum  

 and make your own parts.  If you decide to go this route (which I  

 have), I would suggest that you watch and re-watch "Scratch  

 Building Basics for Metal Aircraft," also from  

 www.homebuilthelp.com.  You might be amazed how easy it is, once  

 the guys from Can-Zac have taken all the mystery out of scratch- 

 building.



 Whatever your choice, know that you will never regret the time you  

 spend educating yourself and remaking each part until you can be  

 absolutely convinced of its airworthiness.  That is time well spent.



 --------

 Larry Winger

 Tustin, CA

 601XL #6493 from scratch

 Control surfaces and wing spars complete





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115255#115255

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

Ron-

    Invest in the DVDs and the materials to make a new one. It will work out 

to about the same cost as a new rudder kit and take just a hair longer.

    Fact of life- you're going to have to make some components on your own 

sooner or later. Might as well get the confidence and satisfaction of doing 

it from scratch early on. My best advice is to remove your clocks and ignore 

your checkbook register.

    By the way- I'm building from a kit, in my 50's, and hope to finish my 

project while I can still pass a medical. Of course, Sport Pilot is plan B. 

As far as a plane to fly, rent.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Noob errors on rudder kit - need help

It would be useful to see a pix of your errors.  If you have a hole in the wrong place you can often just fill it with a rivet.  If your holes do not match up quite perfectly drill them out with a #20 drill bit and install an A5 rivet.



Accept the fact that you are going to make mistakes and that in most cases they can be repaired in a very satisfactory manner.   If your goal is to make a "perfect" plane you can give it up right now.  Feel free to contact me off list if you have other questions.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

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