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Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
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Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

In a message dated 10/3/2007 3:24:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    typically fly my approaches power clear back to idle stop, 65-70 MPH diving    like a bat out of hell     

	


 

 Glad to hear that Mike, sounds like you are on the ball.  Coming from  a high inertia low drag aircraft to a low inertia high drag aircraft was a big  adjustment for me.

  

  

  

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not archive



Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

If you saw what was on the approach end of the runway,  I have a choice of power lines, various chain link fences, or a bunch of Palm trees in the nursery       Engines like to quit at idle sometimes, so I try to pull the power off with the idea that it might not come back.



I did not know you were flying other airplanes Steve, what were you flying before the Kolb ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I know it is difficult for VG'ers,  but over  the years and hours, I have not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's  airplanes. >>

  

 Hi ,

  

 Depends on `requirement`.  To fly the way  Homer intended I am sure that VG`s are not required. The plane is obviously  great and fills most peoples requirements without them. Just look at JH`s  flights for starters. John is obviously a master of the plane and I am sure  there are many others 

  

 However in the UK for the Extra to qualify as a  `microlight` (not exctly the same as your Ultralight) you MUST have the VG`s  fitted or the stalling speed will be too high. In the face of the testing that  was done to establish this it is foolish to maintain that VG`s make no  difference. If that was the case there would be no Xtra flying in the  UK.

  

 Hope to be back flying myself soon. All paperwork  issued. Test Pilot booked for 19th Oct. Hope the weather holds. Its great today,  blue sky, no wind. I may do some taxying later to try to get my hand in again.  Must make sure that I do not  accidentally taxy too fast  .......?

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:38:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I did    not know you were flying other airplanes Steve, what were you flying before    the Kolb ?



Mike 	


 

 Long EZ N27SB.   90 Kts in the pattern, 70 Kts on Final with the  nose high and everything hanging out. It is about as far away from a Firefly you  can get.

  

 steve



See what's new ="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Rick Neilsen wrote: << The challenge showed me a few things. 

John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as

Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to

me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. >>



John and Richard's Mark-IIIs are very different from each other.  This

makes it difficult to compare specific flight characteristics

attributable to the vortex generators.



It seems to me that a more "objective" comparison of VGs versus no-VGs

would be to have one pilot fly the SAME AIRPLANE with and without VGs.

Then see what he thinks.  I nominate Hauck as our test pilot.



I purchased a set of the LandShorter VGs, but have not yet installed

them on my Mark-III.  How's this for a plan: Next May, and the 6th

annual Monument Valley fly-in, I'll let John fly my plane with a clean

wing.  Then, we'll install the VGs (it should only take an hour or two,

especially with all the available help), and let John fly it again.  



It'll be interesting to see if he notices any difference.  Not trying to

convince John that he should install these on Miss P'Fer - just looking

to see if he detects any slow flight performance improvements on this

Mark-III.  



I've been enjoying this thread ...



Dennis Kirby

New Mexico

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I nominate Hauck as our test pilot.

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis Kirby


	




Thanks, but no thanks.



You are more than qualified to fly your own test and make your own 

decisions.



 I can assure you, I have no desire or requirement to fly any slower than I 

was flying off Richard Pike's wing last Saturday afternoon.  That flight 

convinced me there was no appreciable difference in slow flight capability 

between the two mkIII's.



I have no slow flight control problems in my mkIII that need fixing.



The only time I suffer from "Kolb quit" is when I get below the stall speed. 





By now, you all are probably, I hope, getting the message that I am not 

interested in VG's.  Should I ever have another airplane that does not fly 

as well as Kolb aircraft, I might investigate the possibility of VG's saving 

the day.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>





 Rick Neilsen wrote: << The challenge showed me a few things.

 John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as

 Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to

 me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. >>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	


I am curious as to why you believe there was no benefit to the VG's? It 

seems to me that if Richard had pulled his flaps he could have flown slower, 

or am I missing something there? I consider John a friend of mine and a 

exceptional pilot. A bit hard headed on occasion, but then that includes all 

of us Alpha types. That John was able to fly his plane at that speed and 

configuration is not a surprise to me at all, However you are overlooking 

two other factors. Richards lack of a radio causing him to fly blind in a 

formation, ( which I understand he has not done before) and the fact that it 

was not necessary for him to deploy flaps to fly at a speed which required 

that John use them.



If you "have nots" don't want more stability in turns, slow flight, 

increased cushion at landing, less bounces, and you are as good a pilot (of 

which I have little doubt) as John, then don't put the things on! Just spare 

me the rationalization. 

Larry, Oregon

_________________
do not archive

neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Hey Larry

 Good to hear from you. It was great talking to at Monument Valley.

 I will respond to this one LAST time. Would all you VG guys please read my post again before you post. John's plane is a good 20% heaver than Richard's this does increase John's stall speed. I think John's heaver gross weight fairly well balances his use of flaps. OK lets say JUST for argument's sake John's increased weight didn't lower his stall speed at all. His use of flaps doesn't reduce his stall speed by the amount everyone CLAIMS the VGs do. To hear some of you talk you would think VGs would give everyone a 10 MPH stall speed.

 In the clip you attached I said that VGs didn't give Richard the "claimed" advantage I didn't say no advantage. 

 I'm with John's point of view on this one VGs don't appear to give enough benefit on a Kolb that would make me want to put them on my plane. I have a open mind on this and would change my mind if I could see a significat differance. I was there and I just didn't see it.

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com> 

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Rick Neilsen wrote: << The challenge showed me a few things. 

 > John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as 

 > Richard Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to 

 > me was that the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there. >> 

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 ------------------------------------------------------ 

 I am curious as to why   you be lieve there was no benefit to the VG's? It 

 seems to me that if Richard had pulled his flaps he could have flown slower, 

 or am I missing something there? I consider John a friend of mine and a 

 exceptional pilot. A bit hard headed on occasion, but then that includes all 

 of us Alpha types. That John was able to fly his plane at that speed and 

 configuration is not a surprise to me at all, However you are overlooking 

 two other factors. Richards lack of a radio causing him to fly blind in a 

 formation, ( which I understand he has not done before) and the fact that it 

 was not necessary for him to deploy flaps to fly at a speed which required 

 that John use them. 

 If you "have nots" don't want more stability in turns, slow flight, 

 increased cushion at landing, less bounces, and you are as good a pilot (of 

 which I have little doubt) as John, then don't put the things on! J  ust sp  [quote][b]

mmatuszczak(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Best  $100. I've spent on my FSII. Not for the  enhanced performance but for the added safety!!!

  

 MEM FSII 450hrs 

  

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Hi Mike:

  

 I am the last person I know that would want to drag out  the "great VG debate".

  

 However, could you expand on your statement below,  please?  Telling me you put them on for added safety leaves a lot of  questions unanswered.  Did you get the added safety you were looking for,  and how did that happen?

  

 Thanks,

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

 [quote]   Best  $100. I've spent on my FSII. Not for    the enhanced performance but for the added safety!!!

    

   MEM FSII  450hrs 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

However, could you expand on your statement below, please?  Telling me you put them on for added safety leaves a lot of questions unanswered.  Did you get the added safety you were looking for, and how did that happen?  

    

   

    

Thanks,  

    

   

    

john h  

    

mkIII  

    

   

    

<SNIP>  

   

For Pete sake…it is kind of like when your wife asks you, “Why do you love me?”…you will get cooked on that question no matter what you say.  When you come to the table with your mind made up you will never understand the other point of view.  

   

I had a arrogant (sounding) jerk come up to me at SERFI  after seeing the VG’s on my wing and ask, “What aerodynamic problem are these on there to fix?”…I just said the problem of wanting it to stall even slower and more gentle than it already did.  

   

What you fellows saw at the great “test” was 2 different planes, flown in different configurations, at different weights, at different power settings…in other words, from an engineering standpoint you saw nothing!!! The flaps alone can account for a huge increase in max Cl.  If the ground rules had been set beforehand, full flaps/no flaps, idle power only, load the planes to similar weights, etc. it would have been in the neighborhood of a valid test, but the true VALID test is flying the same plane WITHOUT them and then WITH them…no other differences except the effect from the VG’s.  

   

I’LL STATE AGAIN…THE “BEST” TEST OF THEIR BENEFIT IS THE COUPLE OF DOZEN GUYS ON THIS LIST ALONE THAT HAVE TRIED THEM AND SAID THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THEM OFF AND THAT IT WAS THE BEST $100 THEY HAD SPENT ON THEIR PLANE…  

   

If you guys that have NOT actually tried them don’t want to then fine, but DON’T say they have no benefits!  Us that HAVE actually tried them are not stupid...  

   

I have said several times that the improvement is not just a number on the airspeed indicator but how it “feels” when that airspeed indicator is getting near the bottom.  I will guarantee that the absolute bottom number will be lower than before, but that isn’t the major thing.  

   

I just can’t get my head around why you guys are so hell-bent against something you haven’t actually tried…If you try it and can say it was a waste of time,money,etc. then fine you might have a dog in the fight, but why do you even HAVE an opinion of something you have NO EXPERIENCE with?  Like the other major “controversy” of the Kolb-list…SEAFOAM…I never say anything about it, cause…you guessed it …I NEVER HAVE TRIED IT!!!  Sorry, but it didn’t interest me!!!  Oh well!!! But I haven’t had ANYTHING to say about it, pro or con, because I don’t know!!!  Nuff said…  

   

Jeremy  

   

P.S.  From the way I’m ranting about this, you’d think I sold them…Legal disclaimer…I don’t make a penny off anyone installing them or not   

  

       [quote][b]

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I just bought my daughter a car, but, I needed the dealer to find one that met my specs.



I wanted ABS and Side Air Bags.  Neither are items "budget cars" like this are found in stock, but they are options.  



Added safety - I think so.  Does she need to prove it - I hope not.  

do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

Last edited by Jim ODay on Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Jeremy, I think I may have figured it out -



http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/nih.htm



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Mike



Yes Yes....... We heard all that before. But when it came to a side by side 

fly off there was no difference. Sometimes when we invest time and money we 

want it to be soooo bad...... I had a actual forced landing in a bean field 

a few years ago and Homers design came thru for me just fine.



Yes I know it wasn't a fair test. Lets review flaps verses 20% less weight, 

you guys are right John was unfairly challenged. Richard should have carried 

more weight. Also Richard said he practiced slow flight on the way to 

Homecoming and he came for the day so he didn't have all that camping gear 

someone suggested.



Someone said don't knock it till you try it. As sayings go seeing is 

believing.



I'm just giving you VG guys a rough time.



 For me I still don't see enough advantage and before the test I was about 

ready to put them on.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

At 12:26 PM 10/3/07 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Someone said don't knock it till you try it. As sayings go seeing is 

believing.



I'm just giving you VG guys a rough time.



 For me I still don't see enough advantage and before the test I was about 

ready to put them on.




	


Rick,



I will extend the same proposal to you that I gave to John H.



"If you are up to it, I will supply you with a set of VG's that can be 

temporarily mounted with electricians tape.  That way you can fly and record 

your stall speed, land, tape on the VG's and the fly again to get your new 

slower stall speed.  When you find that your stall speed is reduced you can 

pass them on to the next doubter."



Will you duck and run and hide behind the "Homer" and "stock" word?  Or are 

you up to the challenge?.  Here is a chance to try them at no cost to you, 

and as you say "seeing is believing."  The best part is that you get to do 

it in your own aircraft so there will be no question about aircraft 

variations except the without and with VG's.



If you do not want to do it, I will understand.  I'm just trying to give you 

non VG guys a rough time.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  



I'm just giving you VG guys a rough time.



 For me I still don't see enough advantage and before the test I was about 

ready to put them on.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



--- 	




Rick,



Something you should consider, this was ONE test where a pilot who admittedly was distracted and did not try very hard, was trying to out fly the best Kolb pilot in the country.



There have been reports and many scientific tests run by the British CAA, many aircraft manufactures in the US, and a bunch of Kolb pilots that have tested VG's, ALL of them very positive.   Yet you are willing to ignore MASSIVE amounts of evidence collected over the years based on ONE test that went badly according to one of the pilots flying it  ???



Does that make any sense to anyone ???   



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Yet you are willing to ignore MASSIVE amounts of evidence collected over 

the years based on ONE test that went badly according to one of the pilots 

flying it  ???

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Does that make any sense to anyone ???



 Mike


	




Mike B/Jack H/Jeremy C:



I respect your decision to put VG's on your airplanes.



Please be gentlemen and respect my decision not to put them on mine.



I know it is difficult for you all to understand that some of us can and do 

safely fly and enjoy our Kolbs without them.



You all are beginning to sound more and more like TV evangelist.  Next 

you'll be passing the "love offering" bucket.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Hi John,



I'm not trying to talk you into put them on miss P'fer.   Your flying ability is so good, that you really don't need vortex generators.   But as you so clearly demonstrated at the homecoming, the rest of need every advantage we can get    



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm not trying to talk you into put them on miss P'fer.   Your flying 

 ability is so good, that you really don't need vortex generators.   But as 

 you so clearly demonstrated at the homecoming, the rest of need every 

 advantage we can get   



 Mike


	




Mike B:



Doesn't take much flying ability to pull the flaps down, the throttle back, 

and keep the wings level.  My mkIII did the performing.  I did the riding. 

I take no credit for how slowly my mkIII flew.  There are no tricks in 

keeping a Kolb above the stall, except maybe a gentle control touch.  I 

don't know of any other way to reduce stall.  Guess I could have taken Roger 

Lee's advice and hung on my pusher prop.  



You said this morning the comparison between my mkIII and Richard P's was 

not fair.  Sounds like you were making the rules.  You did not brief me on 

them prior to my flight.  What did transpire was pretty simple and the 

briefing and agreement took place in about 10 seconds.  Richard had already 

cranked his 582.  We agreed that I would fly off his right wing, start the 

run on the runway at 50 mph and slow it down from there.  Whoever got to the 

east end of the field last was the winner.  From my vantage point, which was 

the best seat in the house, that is exactly what we did.  We both arrived at 

the end of the strip at the same time.  If Richard could have flown much 

slower and didn't is not my concern.  The fly off was based on flying 

performance demonstrated, not thought about.  Seemed fair to me.  We were 

both sharing the same air at the same time.  Could care less the differences 

in weight, configuration, etc.  We accomplished what we intended to do.



The comparison did not change my mind about putting VG's on my mkIII.  I 

still have no desire to stick'em on there.  Please respect my wishes and 

others they are not overpowered by the insistance that they must fly their 

Kolbs with VGs.  I do not recall insisting you all take them off yours.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

.. fer what it's worth... could use a "Love Offering" down here, Johnny.... 

how does one go about contracting for one of those...?  Do they deliver...?



Also, fer what it's worth, you gents should know that this here Grand Vortex 

Generation string is teetering on the cusp of an historic milestone...   By 

my count, only four more shots on this string (not counting this one, which 

is administrative in nature)  will eclipse the infamous SEAFOAM string back 

in the fall of '98... an extended bit of self-imposed agony which literally 

brought tears to the eyes, new scar tissue to the fingers and lowered PH to 

the intestinal tracts of Listers for many months afterward....



Historic Beauford

FF076

Brandon, FL

Do Not Archive



---

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