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speckter(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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Cleaning with mineral spirits leaves a thin film that resists bonding by epoxy. Don’t tinker with a successful procedure proven over the years by many builders.
Gary
40274
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Tell you what… you can call me “craze-y” if I can call you “barb-ra”! hehe. No, in all seriousness, I take all responsibility for trundling down whatever path I trundle down… no steam gauges, acetone on my windows… you name it. Just because someone says “you should do this!” or “I did it this way!” doesn’t mean you should follow. If all your friends jumped off a building, would you? oh wait… my friends do, and so do I. My point is, as a builder, and especially as a first-timer, all you can do is do the research, and make the best decision that you can. Sometimes, you miss something, as I appear to have in this instance. At those times, I appreciate when folks like you poke me in the eye and show me that I missed some crucial piece of info. I do think that the info provided to us by David McNeil is valuable, and maybe your post would be well served as an edit or addendum to a procedure that seems to have enjoyed good results. You know… in a positive way. In that spirit, I’ll suggest that the original cleaning of the sanded edges of the window be done with good ole water, and the cleanup done with straight mineral spirits. All else in the procedure to remain what it is. Thoughts? Constructive criticism?
cj
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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Use Simple green full strength on the aluminum and plexiglass and all will be well.. right??
Well I too was shot down by John and I didn't take it personally nor I hope do those who ask dumb questions. But I am in the middle here. John made a pointed counter argument for why Acetone can be disasterous just as he did about using Simple green on Aluminum. I appreciate the response, both on my simple green and on the acetone.. why? I feel his passion or is it concern for us as an A&P and although many saw it as rough, the paragraph was fine if I knew were to find it as a reference to back up his comments.
I am also with David and Rick for giving the detailed instructions and sharing it with the group
I am also with Chris in that people should ask the dumb questions and get shot down versus not and having a good DAR do it for you at the inspection.
Not that this is my blog or anything but as a forum we should challenge each other if we know there may be a reason not to use someones suggestions. If as builders we can't think for ourselves (like the gasket for the fuel tank- use it or not?) than we need to ask ourselves what were doing here..
BTW- if anyone doesn't know Simple Green industrial (not the airplane version) is acid to aluminum- DONT use it even diluted- we have John to thank for that.
Rick thanks for sharing
I have seen worse on this forum and than I hear the same people are buying each other beers at OSH each year.
Pascal
One day I too will need to worry about weld on, acetone and mixing ammonia and chlorine together to get a perfect bond for my plexiglass until than where's that bondo for my dents?.
[quote] From: Rick Sked (ricksked(at)embarqmail.com)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
I agree with CJ on this one, David posted a tried and true method used by the Glasair crowd with great success, I reposted it after it was asked for a ways back. I enjoy John's heady responses from time to time but jeeezzz "Fifth paragraph Third sentence." Although I realize there is an absence of malice in the post, I hope CJ doesn't jump of a bridge in despair !! Oh wait...he does that for fun...
I forgot to take into consideration the molecular structure and lubricant content of the plastic, hmmm...lubricant? Plastic? Adhesive? Which one does not go well with a good bond?
Rick S.
40185
do not archive
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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Ok, ok, ok, John. I will recount my experience in short. I’m in Ecuador right now and working long days, so don’t have much time to e-mail. The short of it is that I used a rubber mallet to break the pieces of plexi loose from the glue, as the middle of the windshield was already broken by whatever part of the Columbia hit it. It came off fairly clean, but not too easily. The weakest link in the system is definitely the polycarbonate to glue joint and the polycarbonate to fiberglass joint on the fairing, but it was a pretty strong bond. From there I just ground down the glue (the FE6026 stuff) with a die grinder with a sanding disk on it, cleaned up the glare shield again and started over with a new windshield.
Not a fun job.
Mark Ritter also replaced a windshield, I think. Mark, what was your experience?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever “as provided by David” is… that led you astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that Tim has invested. “Thanks again Tim!” So future builders do not stub their toes on the same rocks along Life’s Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft.. Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can’t share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn’t get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris – keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the information, and it is timely as well. I’ll stick to straight mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn’t cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. J
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I’m sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so. And I’m equally sure that you didn’t intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I’ll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you “old fogeys” will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
--
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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Jesse – thanks and any photos (when you return north) would help clarify the process. Mark are you game on your experience. Our goal is long-term and solid adhesion of the window material to the composite canopy through all types of flying experiences.
I guess too many builders are suffering from Acetone addiction for a Friday.
The attached photo was NOT acetone induced.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ok, ok, ok, John. I will recount my experience in short. I’m in Ecuador right now and working long days, so don’t have much time to e-mail. The short of it is that I used a rubber mallet to break the pieces of plexi loose from the glue, as the middle of the windshield was already broken by whatever part of the Columbia hit it. It came off fairly clean, but not too easily. The weakest link in the system is definitely the polycarbonate to glue joint and the polycarbonate to fiberglass joint on the fairing, but it was a pretty strong bond. From there I just ground down the glue (the FE6026 stuff) with a die grinder with a sanding disk on it, cleaned up the glare shield again and started over with a new windshield.
Not a fun job.
Mark Ritter also replaced a windshield, I think. Mark, what was your experience?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever “as provided by David” is… that led you astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that Tim has invested. “Thanks again Tim!” So future builders do not stub their toes on the same rocks along Life’s Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft.. Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can’t share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn’t get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris – keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the information, and it is timely as well. I’ll stick to straight mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn’t cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. J
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I’m sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so. And I’m equally sure that you didn’t intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I’ll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you “old fogeys” will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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eagerlee
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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have the builders considered the total strength of the cabin when choosing to install windows and windscreen with a 2 part epoxy mixed with chopped fibers? I have no doubt the Plexiglas will stay in place during all regimens of flight, but what happens if one should find oneself UWOF? Will the cabin be as good a protector with glassed in windows as it would be with "weldon-10" glued windows? In other words, did Vans Aircraft engineer this aspect of construction? I would like to do the fiberglass method myself, but I'll probably consult on the builder assist line first, unless someone here has already done so. Also, doesn't alchohol make a good plexi cleaner?
Paul Hahn
#40203 , finishing kit on order
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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This is the best of what I have. Sorry for the mugshot, but it’s a little better than the alternative.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Jesse – thanks and any photos (when you return north) would help clarify the process. Mark are you game on your experience. Our goal is long-term and solid adhesion of the window material to the composite canopy through all types of flying experiences.
I guess too many builders are suffering from Acetone addiction for a Friday.
The attached photo was NOT acetone induced.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ok, ok, ok, John. I will recount my experience in short. I’m in Ecuador right now and working long days, so don’t have much time to e-mail. The short of it is that I used a rubber mallet to break the pieces of plexi loose from the glue, as the middle of the windshield was already broken by whatever part of the Columbia hit it. It came off fairly clean, but not too easily. The weakest link in the system is definitely the polycarbonate to glue joint and the polycarbonate to fiberglass joint on the fairing, but it was a pretty strong bond. From there I just ground down the glue (the FE6026 stuff) with a die grinder with a sanding disk on it, cleaned up the glare shield again and started over with a new windshield.
Not a fun job.
Mark Ritter also replaced a windshield, I think. Mark, what was your experience?
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: John W. Cox [mailto:johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
No, the barb was for whoever “as provided by David” is… that led you astray down that ACETONE path to a replacement window.
There are lots to kudos to be said for the thankless investment of time that Tim has invested. “Thanks again Tim!” So future builders do not stub their toes on the same rocks along Life’s Highway.
Now if only Jesse will share the pictures, techniques and advise he has gleaned from repairing that accident on one of his fleet of aircraft.. Anyone remember the Columbia blade through the front window, Aye?
If we can’t share, then I guess having 975+ lurkers may just be a good thing after all. Hopefully there will be at least one builder who doesn’t get crazing of the glass due to harmful chemical contact.
Chris – keep up the enthusiasm, it can be contagious. I get lots of great ideas from your progress and experimentation. I am even looking at a CNC mill after those Kitplane articles and your efforts.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:01 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Alternatives for Weld On 10?
Ouch. That email had a bit of a barb in it eh? Oh well, I appreciate the information, and it is timely as well. I’ll stick to straight mineral spirits I guess. And hope that the first window I did that way doesn’t cause me to come tumbling out of the sky. J
John, while I appreciate the excellent info and resources that you offer to us over-enthusiastic types, I feel that possibly this type of response, while informative and very very helpful, could possibly lead other builders with thinner skin to not post questions at all. Just a thought. I’m sure glad I opened my mouth, because I got some good information out of doing so. And I’m equally sure that you didn’t intend your email to be as pointy as it sounded on first read.
Anyway, I’ll keep asking all the idiot questions I can think of, and you “old fogeys” will hopefully keep setting me straight!
cj
(research-impaired and overly enthusiastic)
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Alternatives for Weld On 10? |
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My front window came out surprisingly easy. Almost to easy. It came out in fairly large pieces. I had used a glue recommended by a Lancair builder. On the second window I used the Weld-0n 10.
Good turn out of RV-10's at LOE. I believe there were at least ten or eleven there. One unpainted RV-10 had a for sale sign with a $225k asking price.
Mark Ritter
RV-10/N410MR<html><div></div>
Subject: RE: Alternatives for Weld On 10?Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:52:44 -0700From: johnwcox(at)pacificnw.comTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Jesse – thanks and any photos (when you return north) would help clarify the process. Mark are you game on your experience. Our goal is long-term and solid adhesion of the window material to the composite canopy through all types of flying experiences.
I guess too many builders are suffering from Acetone addiction for a Friday
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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