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rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Ivo Props

Once I had to replace a blade on my Ivo... the replacement blade was sent back with a document that said in big letters, "don't use this prop without the spacer blocks!" or something to that effect.

  -- R 

On 10/26/07, Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com (ez(at)embarqmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com (ez(at)embarqmail.com)>

IVO users,

In my opinion Lucien is right about the risks involved in running an

 IVO without the filler blocks installed.

Here is why I believe it is unsafe.

When the bolts are tightened the two bolts without the spacer blocks

will cause the aluminum faceplate to warp. This distortion of the 

face plate compromises the "uniform" clamping pressure on the prop

blade root.  As Lucien said this distortion can be prevented by

stacking washers of the same thickness as the blade root.

 If you do decide to run a two blade IVO without the spacer blocks or

washers, do your lawyer a favor. Make certain you first get a signed

approval document from IVO .

Gene

On Oct 26, 2007, at 10:05 AM, lucien wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

 jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:

> Lucien, Unless someone at 1-800-367-7767 gets a charge out of 

> answering the phone, "Ivo Prop", and somehow knew it was Ron I was

> going to be asking for, I'm pretty sure it was the right number.

>

> Rick

>

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well regardless of what they told you, the hub if run with 2 blades

 and no other support in the gaps WILL dramatically increase the

 likelihood of a very expensive and possibly dangerous accident. 

 Again, the hub secured only with 2 blade roots is NOT strong enough

 to hold together reliably under the normal conditions of usage in

 flight. Do NOT try to fix this by torquing the remaining bolts down 

 more than 200 in/lbs, or by installing and torquing the other two

 bolts with no support in the gap!

 Again, do NOT ask me why I know this, tho I will merely say that

 I've verified this danger first-hand! 

 You can correct this partially, like I said, with stacks of wide AN

 washers as thick as the gap secured by the other two bolts to the

 specified torque (200 in/lbs) as a field repair. But the overall 

 strength of the hub is still compromised somewhat and it really

 shouldn't be run like that all the time.

 The bumbers, though, do result in a fully secured hub with no

 worries and the prop works great thus properly assembled... 

 Caveat Emptor!

 LS

 --------

 LS

 FS II

 Read this topic online here:

[b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Ivo Props

One last thing on this, the last time I read the documentation (such as it is) for the IVO, there was an explicit statement in there that the bumper blocks were needed in the 2-blade config and that it should not be used without it.



If you do try it, you should be able to hear the results as you approach full power. If you miss that queue (and it's unmistably loud) and manage to get off the ground, you might end up using the BRS in short order......



Don't mean to harp on this but I don't want even the _suggestion_ that this _might_ be safe to go uncountered..... 



Ok I'm done as I believe this horse is dead by now....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

Let me add one comment before this horse dies.Regarding damage to IVO props in particular.Had a antenna fail and the prop caught the whip as it was leaving the scene.About a 3/16 dent in the leading edge of one blade under the metal taped section. IVO said remove tape,sand dent smooth; clean with acetone,fill with epoxy (JB Weld) after cured,sand with block reapply new tape.That was 3yrs,150 hrs ago.

     IVO said I could send it in but that is how they would fix it as well.Could you not repair a Warp or Powerfin this way?



lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" 



One last thing on this, the last time I read the documentation (such as it is) for the IVO, there was an explicit statement in there that the bumper blocks were needed in the [quote][b]

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

At 05:12 PM 10/26/2007, gary aman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Let me add one comment before this horse dies.Regarding damage to IVO 

props in particular.Had a antenna fail and the prop caught the whip as it 

was leaving the scene.About a 3/16 dent in the leading edge of one blade 

under the metal taped section. IVO said remove tape,sand dent smooth; 

clean with acetone,fill with epoxy (JB Weld) after cured,sand with block 

reapply new tape.That was 3yrs,150 hrs ago.

      IVO said I could send it in but that is how they would fix it as 

 well.Could you not repair a Warp or Powerfin this way?


	


The powerfin props have a foam core, so a relatively small undetected crack 

could seriously compromise the strength of the thin load bearing skin... 

which is what apparently happened to the pilot I knew.  The same size 

damage would have less effect on a solid prop, which is what I presume Ivo 

and Warp props are.



                                 -Dana

--

--

But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

Gene



   When I ran two bladed IVO ..I used a really thick faceplate

washer---5/8th inch thick...... I then took care to do the final torque

on the blade bolts first and then  torque the two bolts in the empty

spaces next..  



    Not enough hours,100 or so, for a scientific study...but had no

problems ...



    By the way....anyone with a two blade hub for GSC? I have two left

hand tractor blades...64 inch   Herb 

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:21:37 -0400 Eugene Zimmerman <ez(at)embarqmail.com>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ez(at)embarqmail.com>

 

 IVO users,

 

 

 

 In my opinion Lucien is right about the risks involved in running an 

  

 IVO without the filler blocks installed.

 

 

 

 Here is why I believe it is unsafe.

 

 When the bolts are tightened the two bolts without the spacer blocks 

  

 will cause the aluminum faceplate to warp. This distortion of the  

 face plate compromises the "uniform" clamping pressure on the prop  

 

 blade root.  As Lucien said this distortion can be prevented by  

 stacking washers of the same thickness as the blade root.

 

 

 

 If you do decide to run a two blade IVO without the spacer blocks or 

  

 washers, do your lawyer a favor. Make certain you first get a signed 

  

 approval document from IVO .

 

 

 

 Gene

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Ivo Props

 	  gaman(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  

Had a antenna fail and the prop caught the whip as it was leaving the scene.About a 3/16 dent in the leading edge of one blade under the metal taped section. IVO said remove tape,sand dent smooth; clean with acetone,fill with epoxy (JB Weld) after cured,sand with block reapply new tape.That was 3yrs,150 hrs ago.

     IVO said I could send it in but that is how they would fix it as well.Could you not repair a Warp or Powerfin this way?



	




First, my warp drive has nickel leading edges, so damage would have been far less, and it would have gotten me home.  



Second, with what these airplanes cost, I would much rather spend 200 bucks for a new blade than try to repair an old one, I would always wonder if it would fail in flight.   A prop failure usually results in total disaster, so I would have not enjoyed the 3 years and 150 hours flying on a repaired prop.



A new blade for the warp drive is around 200 bucks when all is said and done.  If 200 dollars for a new blade is a reason to use a substandard prop, then you probably are to poor to fly safely.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Ivo Props

Yea your right,why use common sense when you can throw money at it.Works for the government.



JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 

gaman(at)att.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Had a antenna fail and the prop caught the whip as it was leaving the scene.About a 3/16 dent in the leading edge of one blade under the metal taped section. IVO said remove tape,sand dent smooth; clean with acetone,fill with epoxy (JB Weld) after cured,sand with block reapply new tape.That was 3yrs,150 hrs ago.

      IVO said I could send it in but that is how they would fix it as well.Could you not repair a Warp or Powerfin this way?

 

 


	




First, my warp drive has nickel leading edges, so damage would have been far less, and it would have gotten me [quote][b]

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Ivo Props

I've fixed chips/nicks in IVO's ...two different ways....



 One way was ...Superglue & Baking Soda.....



 Another way was , I cut some fiberglass matting.....Chopped it up...

Mixed it with the Fiberglass resin & Hardener....

 Both process were sanded smooth after hardened....



Never had a problem with any repairs....

.

.

Gotta Fly...

 Mike & "Jaz" in MN

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Ivo Props

 	  gaman(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  



Had a antenna fail and the prop caught the whip as it was leaving the scene.About a 3/16 dent in the leading edge of one blade under the metal taped section. IVO said remove tape,sand dent smooth; clean with acetone,fill with epoxy (JB Weld) after cured,sand with block reapply new tape.That was 3yrs,150 hrs ago.

	




Its not a matter of repairing your prop or not, its a matter of the prop not comming apart in flight when something bigger hits it ( Like a Muffler ).  Your reasoning of using an IVO because it is repairable and might save you a couple hundred dollars is very poor judgement.   



Just a couple months ago, a kolb went down when the oil cap hit the prop and the resulting prop damage caused the pilot to land, and flip the plane.  Had that been a warp drive, it would have not been an emergency, no off airport landing, and a much better and cheaper outcome.



There is just as much a chance that something bigger could depart the plane and the warp would stay together where the IVO comes apart.  



Its a safety issue, not " throwing money at it ".



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Ivo Props

If your muffler goes thru your prop.....???



 Oh , that's good...



We must be talking about "Blind" no preflighting, Pilots now....



I was only talking about how I fixed a few nicks....



Had NOTHING to do with why I bought the prop....



What'a  maroon...

.

.

.

.

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

In a message dated 10/28/2007 6:37:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Just a couple months ago, a kolb went down when the oil cap hit the prop and the resulting prop damage caused the pilot to land, and flip the plane.  Had that been a warp drive, it would have not been an emergency, no off airport landing, and a much better and cheaper outcome. 	


 Hold on a min the 1st mistake was the pilot  was to blame when he didn't tighten or check the oil cap on preflight 

  2nd the pilots poor judgment with an emergency landing is what caused the plane to flip no matter what Prop he had the results would have been the same 

 the way I see it anyhow 

  

 Delete button ready for your response 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  

  





  [quote][b]

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

At 11:33 PM 10/28/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 10/28/2007 6:37:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:  Just a couple months ago, a kolb went down when the oil cap hit the prop and the resulting prop damage caused the pilot to land, and flip the plane.  Had that been a warp drive, it would have not been an emergency, no off airport landing, and a much better and cheaper outcome.



 Hold on a min the 1st mistake was the pilot  was to blame when he didn't tighten or check the oil cap on preflight 

  2nd the pilots poor judgment with an emergency landing is what caused the plane to flip no matter what Prop he had the results would have been the same 

 the way I see it anyhow 	


 I don't know how many of you guys have really had stuff fall off and come thru your prop.

 I fly a Warp Drive and little things, like muffler springs, don't seem to matter - later on you

 land and there is a nick in your prop, so what. Any body that has had a "big chunk" knocked out

 of their prop knows that they are about to have the ride of their life!  

 Shake&Bake ,... doesn't even begin to describe what happens at "normal throttle" settings

 when you lose a chunk of even "one" blade. I've seen cages cracked after just seconds of full power 

 settings with a damaged prop. I've listened to my friends tell me that they could not even reach 

 the kill switch because things were shaking so bad. 

 I'll be honest - I think a loose oil cap could put you down on take off with full power

 even with a Warp.    [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Ivo Props

So far I've been lucky.  Had some tiny leading edge nicks that were  

very easily fixed, never could

figure what caused them.  Couple years back I was experimenting with  

an elbow on the top of

the carb to see if there would be any ram air effect.  When I landed  

it was hanging by a thread,

jiggled loose by the "ol vibrator" Suzuki.  My preflights are more  

thorough these days.

Guarantee there is more safety wire on it than you will find on any  

Rotax.  

BB

do not archive  (is this still necessary?)

apilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: Ivo Props

Safety wire is good, nylon electrical ties are good, tape is fair, silicon will hold some things and nlyon string is handy.  Some A&Ps have looked at my Suzuki 3 banger and just shook their head.  But, everything seems to stay on.  I have learned lately that to fly my Kolb in cold weather, it is a good idea to cover about a third of the old Geo Metro radiator.  Otherwise, the water temp gets too low and it does not produce peak power.  It would be nice to invent something like a cowl flap to control the amount of outside air to the radiator.  

--

apilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: Ivo Props

I drilled a little hole in the oil cap and the radiator cap and made a loop around the neck so that it will turn and come off, but it is never loose to where it can depart the scene.

 From: possums

 Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 9:04 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Ivo Props

  At 11:33 PM 10/28/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 10/28/2007 6:37:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:  Just a couple months ago, a kolb went down when the oil cap hit the prop and the resulting prop damage caused the pilot to land, and flip the plane.  Had that been a warp drive, it would have not been an emergency, no off airport landing, and a much better and cheaper outcome.

 Hold on a min the 1st mistake was the pilot  was to blame when he didn't tighten or check the oil cap on preflight 

  2nd the pilots poor judgment with an emergency landing is what caused the plane to flip no matter what Prop he had the results would have been the same 

 the way I see it anyhow 	

 I don't know how many of you guys have really had stuff fall off and come thru your prop.

 I fly a Warp Drive and little things, like muffler springs, don't seem to matter - later on you

 land and there is a nick in your prop, so what. Any body that has had a "big chunk" knocked out

 of their prop knows that they are about to have the ride of their life!  

 Shake&Bake ,... doesn't even begin to describe what happens at "normal throttle" settings

 when you lose a chunk of even "one" blade. I've seen cages cracked after just seconds of full power 

 settings with a damaged prop. I've listened to my friends tell me that they could not even reach 

 the kill switch because things were shaking so bad. 

 I'll be honest - I think a loose oil cap could put you down on take off with full power

 even with a Warp.    [quote]

[b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Ivo Props

Vic, Check out how the 18 wheeler guys do it. They have zippered, window blind and venetian blind type radiator covers. the window blind and venetian blind are cable controlled from the cab. Shouldn't be that difficult to make something similar. 



Rick



On 10/29/07, Vic Gibson <apilot(at)webtv.net (apilot(at)webtv.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic Gibson" <apilot(at)webtv.net (apilot(at)webtv.net)>



Safety wire is good, nylon electrical ties are good, tape is fair, silicon will hold some things and nlyon string is handy.  Some A&Ps have looked at my Suzuki 3 banger and just shook their head.  But, everything seems to stay on.  I have learned lately that to fly my Kolb in cold weather, it is a good idea to cover about a third of the old Geo Metro radiator.  Otherwise, the water temp gets too low and it does not produce peak power.  It would be nice to invent something like a cowl flap to control the amount of outside air to the radiator. 

--

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

Vic, take a look at heating/air conditioning registers with the 

close-able louvers.  May be somewhat heavy, but a lever and push/pull 

cable shouldn't be too hard to rig.                             Lar.



Vic Gibson wrote:

[quote] 



 Safety wire is good, nylon electrical ties are good, tape is fair, silicon will hold some things and nlyon string is handy.  Some A&Ps have looked at my Suzuki 3 banger and just shook their head.  But, everything seems to stay on.  I have learned lately that to fly my Kolb in cold weather, it is a good idea to cover about a third of the old Geo Metro radiator.  Otherwise, the water temp gets too low and it does not produce peak power.  It would be nice to invent something like a cowl flap to control the amount of outside air to the radiator.  

 --

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

Mike,

  I just shared an experience I had with an IVO and IVO's response to my inquiry about having it repaired.I don't run a IVO because it's repairable.I run it because it is the only 3 blade that meets the mass inertia limits of a B box.Small injuries like the one I described,might well be repairable.It doesn't take a muffler to destroy any prop,a 3oz spring will do.As for the rest of your assumptions,assume away.

JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 

gaman(at)att.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Had a antenna fail and the prop caught the whip as it was leaving the scene.About a 3/16 dent in the leading edge of one blade under the metal taped section. IVO said remove tape,sand dent smooth; clean with acetone,fill with epoxy (JB Weld) after  cured,sand with block reapply new tape.That was 3yrs,150 hrs ago.

 


	




Its not a matter of repairing your prop or not, its a matter of the prop not comming apart in flight when something bigger hits it ( Like a Muffler ).  Your reasoning of using an IVO because it is repairable and might save you a couple hundred dollars is very poor judgement.   



Just a couple months ago, a kolb went down when the oil cap hit the prop and the resulting prop damage caused the pilot to land, and flip the plane.  Had that been a warp drive, it would have not been an emergency, no off airport landing, and a much better and cheaper outcome.



There is just as much a chance that something bigger could depart the plane and the warp would stay together where the IVO comes apart.  



Its a safety issue, not " throwing money at it ".



Mike



--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb MK-III Xtra, [quote][b]

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: Ivo Props

ElleryWeld wrote: << the 1st mistake was the pilot was to blame when he

didn't tighten or check the oil cap on preflight >>



Agree.  I like to think I will perform better preflights in the future.



<< 2nd the pilots poor judgment with an emergency landing is what caused

the plane to flip no matter what Prop he had the results would have been

the same >>



Aw, geez, Ellery - now my feelings are hurt, Amigo! 



In retrospect, here's how I summarized the outcome of my "mud flats

landing" event last July:  Every emergency is different, and you almost

never know what the outcome might be, due to all the possible variables.



For my case, when the oil cap went thru the prop, I was getting a

vibration from the engine due to the damaged prop blade.  My choices

were: 1) try to fly 20 miles back to my home airport (nearest airport),

or 2) do an off-airport precautionary landing as soon as practicable. 



I was over some dry lake beds at the time, so I chose to land on it.

Turns out it was muddy below the dry surface crust, so my wheels bogged

down and my Mark-III went on its back.  The alternative would have been

to land on the grassy tundra-like terrain surrounding the lake beds.

But on closer inspection, that choice would have been far more

disastrous!  What looked like grassy meadow from 1000' agl was in fact

very rough clump grass.  I would have ended up with MUCH worse damage to

my plane - bent gear legs, bent frame, etc.  There were no nearby roads

to land on, either.  I'm glad I chose the lake bed to land on.  Damage

was minimal.  



Could I have made it back to the airport?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I did not

want to deal with the possibility of that prop blade failing half way

home, and the potentially disastrous result of that!



So the lesson here is, we have to make the best judgment we can based on

the circumstances apparent to us when faced with an emergency.  Your

outcome may vary from the other guy's.



Meanwhile, I am beginning to look more favorably at these ultra-robust

Warp Drive props ...



Dennis Kirby

Feelings not really hurt, in

Cedar Crest, NM

Do not archive

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Ivo Props

---

_________________
do not archive

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