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Finally flying my MK III!!!
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ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

On Feb 17, 2008, at 5:07 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I flew down to Lucedale, MS, last week, with a load of barn dust,  

 bug crap, and cow manure.  Did 380 sm in 4.2 hours.  Believe if I  

 cleaned her up I could have done a lot better.  Every time I wash my  

 1992 Dodge/Cummins it seems to run twice as good.  Maybe I should  

 try that with the mkIII.


	




John,

Just curious, what was the problem with the original gears that were  

replaced?



As for a true apples to apples VG test we need to have this settled  

once and for all by having  a well seasoned kolb pilot try slow flight  

to stall  with VG's on just one wing.  < g >

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

> Just curious, what was the problem with the original gears that were

 	  Quote: 	
		   replaced?


	




Gene Z:



There were some isolated cases of gear teeth shedding some metal fragments 

that could eventually cause a catastrophic failure if those fragements got 

into the gears.



I believe Rotax took a big bracket on each side the failures and mine was 

included in that bunch.



My old gears, the gear box, and the crankshaft looked great, just like it 

should have.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

At 10:47 AM 2/17/2008, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   > If you have the bucks, this is the way to go for accurate airspeed

>indication.

http://www.airstuff.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=WINASI-Venturi

Can't see spending that much on an ASI... I'm not worried about supreme 

accuracy; I just want to get the best accuracy out of what I already have.

-Dana

do not archive

--

  "The difference between death and taxes is death doesn't get worse every

time Congress meets." -- Will Rogers

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

At 09:50 AM 2/17/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed 

indicators are?  I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but 

cold weather has kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.



-Dana


	


I've got one on mine - it's more accurate than the one inside at low speeds.

Especially with the windshield off, but I think even with the windshield on

the Hall ASI is the most consistent.

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_________________
Possum

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

I am reminded of the old Kolb Video, with Dennis Souder flying three 

models.. His slow flight in the mark 111 was quite impressive to me.. 

full flaps...  and some  power...



   I think that sort of  maneuverability is what sold a lot of us on 

Kolbs in the first place... gotta be light however.. Mine was very 

stock and weighed 490 as I recall..I haven't landed any plane that 

well since... Never did get around to using the second notch of flaps.. Herb

At 10:24 AM 2/17/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have had an outside static source on my Kolb from the beginning, 

so there are no pressure errors in my system.   I have also checked 

my airspeed readings with the GPS you see in the picture under no 

wind conditions, and again everything is accurate.



Precise placement of the VG's has been determined by the 

manufacturer, they are not airplane specific, but its about the same 

for most general aviation airfoils.  The angles of the VG's into the 

wind are especially critical as is thier design.  I put them on 

exactly per the instructions, and the result was an incredible 

difference.  You can get the VG's at:



http://www.landshorter.com/



There is another Kolb MK III with a 912 based at my field, its "Fat 

Albert" as some of you remember that plane.  The difference between 

landing that plane and landing my plane is huge, the other MK III 

has to be landed very fast, and with power to keep it from dropping 

hard onto the runway much the same as described by Grant.   My MK 

III can be landed engine off, approaching at 50 MPH and result in a 

soft landing.  The "Fat Albert" pilot could not believe the 

difference between the two MK III's.



In a nutshell, the VG's eliminate the "Kolb Quit" where the plane 

just drops into the runway if you get it to slow.   I generally do 

three point landings, but many times I touch the tailwheel first at 

less than 30 MPH indicated, no problem, the mains just come down 

very nicely.  I will take some videos of this and post them on You Tube.



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as 

you could have !!!



Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164578#164578

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Here is a link to the only hall ASI that I could find. Pretty cheap.



i have a anenometer 

http://www.willswing.com/prod2.asp?theClass=inst&theModel=hall



I have one of these hand held anemometers and it is very accurate. I tested it in the car by sticking it out the window and it was exact to the speedometer. Also walking in calm air it will read around 3mph.



I wanted to take it up in the plane but I don't think it would be a good idea to open the door on the MK III! It seems like it would blow up the way it swings up to open.



http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Lacrosse-Handheld-Anemometer-Wind-Speed-Wind-Chill_W0QQitemZ160207622772QQihZ006QQcategoryZ48624QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Grant



VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe. In a 

recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.

	




The pilot flying with the VG's was distracted, and did not fly the plane well, which he admitted here on the list.  You statement here is nothing short of misleading and bordering on dishonest.   Also, not all VG's installations are equal.  VG's made out of alumimum with the " That looks about right" technique might not work as well.  Placement and angles are VERY critical, if VG's were not installed in a very precise and accurate manner, their effects will be drastically reduced.



 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  



John H correctly made a point that airspeed indicators in Kolbs can be 

inaccurate and at higher angles of attack they get even more so.



	




Did you not read my post, I have a separate static source and back up the airspeed with GPS as can be seen in my picture, again your statement is nothing short of misrepresenting the facts to make your point.  Look at the attached picture and try to explain the GPS speed as instrument error.



 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  



The term I hear "kolb quit" is plain and simple a stall no matter how much 

these newbies want to believe otherwise. 

 No I don't have VGs. Three point landings are easer 

for me and I land slower so....



As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

--- 	




Kolb quit is a very real fact, and it bends a lot of gear on landing.  VG's practically eliminate this bad behavior.   I dont care what theory may or not apply, I would rather have my Kolb land in a docile manner, and be forgiving of less than perfect technique.  Pilots are human, from time to time you will have a bad landing, I dont want an airplane that will bite me and be easily damaged on a less than perfect landing.



 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  



As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.  



	
  



There is a huge amount of evidence and testimonials on the positive effect VG's here on the list.  I have not always had VG's, I have flown my plane with and without them, and I am giving my results backed up with pictures and numbers.  I do not sell VG's,  and I have no reason to mislead anyone here.  I am posting information on VG's here because some Kolbers took the trouble to tell me about the benefits of VG's, so im passing it along to others that can benefit also.



Your catchy little one liner is nothing more than an attempt to distract readers from the facts here.   All Rick has here is some very biased opinions, and has done nothing short of mislead and misrepresent the facts to make his point.  Look at the pictures, look at the facts, and then make your choice.



Mike Bigelow

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe. In a 

recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.>>



Hi Rick,



on this side of the pond the engineering department of the PFA carried out 

very stringent tests and the answer as far as stall speed is concerned is 

`They work`.  The proof is that the Xtra would not make the stalling speed 

required to qualify as a `microlight` without the VG`s.  With the VG`s 

fitted it dropped the stalling speed by enough to enable the Xtra to make 

the grade.



Any further so called benefits in cruise and handling are pretty sibjective 

I think but  the lowering of the stall speed is unquestionable. Here you 

will not get a Certificate to Fly without the VG`s fitted.



Cheers



Pat

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

> Your catchy little one liner is nothing more than an attempt to distract 

readers from the facts here.   All Rick has here is some very biased 

opinions, and has done nothing short of mislead and misrepresent the facts 

to make his point.  Look at the pictures, look at the facts, and then make 

your choice.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike Bigelow


	




Mike B:



Rick Neilsen was on the ground at London observing the flyoff between 

Richard Pike and me.  His comments are not biased opinions, and he is not 

trying to mislead and misrepresent the facts to make his point.



I flew as slow as Rev Pike with a mkIII that was "probably" much heavier 

than his mkIII equipped with VG's.  Was Richard distracted?  Hell, I don't 

know, or do I understand why that would have anything to do with his minimum 

flight speed.  The wings are going to fly until they quit, whether you are 

having a good day or bad.



I am extremely happy you have a static source for your airspeed indicator. 

All ASI's have them, although most are not calibrated.  If they are not 

calibrated, they are not very accurate.  Takes very little static pressure 

error to kick one +10 or -10 mph.



Your photo is very impressive.  If, in fact, your mkIIIx will fly 25 mph 

straight and level, I congratulate you, because it is probably the only one 

in existence that will fly that slow.



Again, I am not saying VG's do not work.  I am saying whatever improvement 

there is is not justification for me to install them on my airplane.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Mike



I will only respond this once on this issue only because of your continued 

inference about the flying qualities of a Kolb. "Kolb Quit" is a "stall" 

caused by low speed landings in a very low mass airplane. This is what makes 

our Kolbs superior STOL airplanes. If one follows common GA pilot training 

with the use of flaps and no power in landing you are right Kolbs take a 

high skill level to keep from bending gear. If we change our technique by 

add some speed and power while landing, Kolbs become a very forgiving 

airplanes to land correctly. Granted it is best to land without having to 

depend on power and maybe slower speeds but slowly progress to that stage as 

you get more proficient in your Kolb.



As for the VG thing. At some point I will put them on my plane. I think they 

help and as I get older I might need the help but I'm still concerned about 

them lowering my cruise speeds. With that said the benefits are considerably 

over stated on this list. A ham fisted pilot will still bend his landing 

gear or worse even with VGs. Mike keeps saying I ignore the "facts". Most of 

us are aware that there is a considerable inaccuracy in airspeed indicators 

in different airplanes especially between installations and measurement 

types. To show a photo of a ASI and call it "fact" is a bit of a stretch. I 

REALLY REALLY don't want to start another VG battle again on the list but. I 

was there at the VG fly off and saw the drastic differences between the two 

planes and pilots. There would have been 100% agreement between every one 

there except maybe John H that he was going to get his butt kicked big time 

before the fly off. It didn't happen, it was a draw.Yes I heard ALL of the 

excuses but if VGs help as much as you guys say is "fact" it still would 

have been a butt kicking. One final comment that is truly quantifiable is 

that John's non VG airplane weighed almost 25% more!!!



OK. Mike I know you, like my wife, will have to have the last word so have 

at it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Sorry. 



Two different airplanes (even though both are Kolbs) with two different pilots.



The “VG” fly off was interesting but hardly a definitive determination about the effectiveness of V.G.’s.

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