Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

601 crashes

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jerry(at)jerryhey.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: 601 crashes

I am not a 601 builder or pilot.   My heart goes out to all the 601  

guys.  I would not take a demo ride in one until what is going on is  

understood and remedied.



I am about to start scratch building a 701.  I have built tube and rag  

in the past.



The 601 crashes have caused me to take another look at the 701.  Quite  

honestly,  I love this airplane and it is probably strong enough to  

never have a structural failure BUT nobody could call it rugged.  The  

thin skins, widely separated ribs, continual talk about oil canning.   

I can imagine ia 701 is not difficult to dent.   Perhaps the trade off  

of structure vs weight has tilted too far toward light weight. Maybe  

that is true but just for me. Others would quite rightly feel different.



I would not mind adding a few pounds of toughness to my airplane.



Jerry

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: 601 crashes

The 601 and 701 are VERY far apart in design .  not even apples and oranges, 

more like apples and a Buick.

The 701 has been around for almost 20 yrs (1986 I think) and until recently 

when a pilot dug in a wingtip on a low,  LOW buzz job , there had never been 

a fatality in one.  In the homebuilt arena that is almost unheard of. It may 

even be the only design that can claim that.   Remarkable considering how 

many there are and the conditions they are flown in.

Be cautious about adding "toughness" without proper engineering,  making 

things worse is EASY to do when you change highly loaded, lightweight 

structures  willy nilly.

Speaking about engineering,  you guys gonna keep wringing your hands and 

whining or DO something??  LO&SLO   John

---

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: 601 crashes

You can make a deal with yourself and with the 701...  (Just  talking, I dont know you or seen a photo of yourself)  

  For every pound of weight you loose (until you reach 150 lbs),  add the same in extra aluminum skin thickness in the 701           so the plane performs as advertised

  Sorry for the joke  

   

  The 701 is a great airplane for more than 25 years (maybe more) of no fatalities (but only one: the recent  recless flying wing strike to the floor) .   

   

  YES, we all are waiting for the results of this accidents research in the XL's ,  I thrust  Mr Heintz and Family with the results and any advised correction IF needed.

  I will gladly rebuilt any part if advised.

   

  For now,  seems that the Australian plane  had the wings attached  once they found it in the ocean.    so no structural failure in this wings,  in this case.. 

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower.

  Do not archive

   

  



Jerry Hey <jerry(at)jerryhey.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jerry Hey 



I am not a 601 builder or pilot. My heart goes out to all the 601 

guys. I would not take a demo ride in one until what is going on is 

understood and remedied.



I am about to start scratch building a 701. I have built tube and rag 

in the past.



The 601 crashes have caused me to take another look at the 701. Quite 

honestly, I love this airplane and it is probably strong enough to 

never have a structural failure BUT nobody could call it rugged. The 

thin skins, [quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: 601 crashes

Jerry,

You worry about .016" skin and yet you happily (I assume) have flown in rag wings? (I have done the same and am not in any way putting them down) I'd put .016" AL up against fabric any old day.  I'm sure rag wings oil can too, we just don't have the ability to hear it. Have you purchased the .016" yet? It is not the foil that you may think it is. The 701 has an impeccable  safety record and I have no worries about it.  The Savannah has longer wings, a higher Vne and a higher gross. Yet it is not as ruggedly built as the 701, I may be wrong(I don't think so though)  but I believe it to be a slightly moded non-SP (early model) 701. I have the Savannah upgrade instructions for the higher gross and it is not much!

Build your airplane and fly safe and you will be safe.



Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: 601 crashes

You're talking Apples and Oranges when you compare a ragwing to a Zenith.  I also own a ragwing (Champ) and the fabric covering is for the most part just a cover.  The strength in the fuselage comes from the welded tube frame.  In the wings, there is internal cross bracing between the spars while the ribs are held in position by nails in the spars and tiny screws thru the fabric into the rib flange.



In semi monocoque construction like the Zenith (and Cessna, Piper, et al) the skin is indeed a structural component.  It serves not only as a aerodynamic cover  but also holds all of the underlying skeleton in position and helps transfer and distribute the flight loads.   Although the individual pieces may seem flimsy, when joined together you can create a robust structure that performs well.



My wife helped me move the tail section of my XL fuselage out into the main hangar today and she was not impressed.  I'm not sure I convinced her that the finished product will be strong enough to carry us aloft.  For the time being she is giving me the benefit of the doubt.  



Tim

Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: 601 crashes

" Eggshell "

---

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: 601 crashes

I agree, but it is the perception, that is being questioned and Jerry offered up the rag wing. Its not like the skin will fatigue any sooner then the fabric will rot  a few times on your champ. But your cloth is indeed part of your fuselage, remove it and see if it flys.  



BTW: My next build is going to be a ragwing Cub like something or other.



 	  Tim Juhl wrote: 	
		  You're talking Apples and Oranges when you compare a ragwing to a Zenith.  I also own a ragwing (Champ) and the fabric covering is for the most part just a cover.  The strength in the fuselage comes from the welded tube frame.  In the wings, there is internal cross bracing between the spars while the ribs are held in position by nails in the spars and tiny screws thru the fabric into the rib flange.



In semi monocoque construction like the Zenith (and Cessna, Piper, et al) the skin is indeed a structural component.  It serves not only as a aerodynamic cover  but also holds all of the underlying skeleton in position and helps transfer and distribute the flight loads.   Although the individual pieces may seem flimsy, when joined together you can create a robust structure that performs well.



My wife helped me move the tail section of my XL fuselage out into the main hangar today and she was not impressed.  I'm not sure I convinced her that the finished product will be strong enough to carry us aloft.  For the time being she is giving me the benefit of the doubt.  



Tim

Do not archive

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: 601 crashes

RE: Ragwing - I suspect the champ would fly as long as the tail and wings were covered (remember the breezy?)  Wouldn't be very fast 



Personally I like fabric airplanes.... just don't let anyone carrying a sharp object  get too close    Aluminum certainly has the edge in durability.



Tim

Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: 601 crashes

[quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Re: 601 crashes

Don't tell anyone on this all AL list, but if Preceptor had the sale last fall that they have now on Ultra Pups....well you get the idea.  

Do not archive



 	  Tim Juhl wrote: 	
		  RE: Ragwing - I suspect the champ would fly as long as the tail and wings were covered (remember the breezy?)  Wouldn't be very fast 



Personally I like fabric airplanes.... just don't let anyone carrying a sharp object  get too close    Aluminum certainly has the edge in durability.



Tim

Do not archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum