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Doors coming off
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VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

"I also heard several post say to reach  back and feel that the pin has gone through the door guide. "    Guys this is rediculous we need a fix so that whoever can jump in and  fly the plane and believe that the doors will not fly off. I mean would the  public tolerate it if a car door fell off? Why should we. We need a fix so that  you can get in shut the door "thats it" No checking pins or reaching behind the  seat etc etc.

  

 Ok so I am not convinced about this flexing yet as we cannot be sure the  doors that have come off had the rear pins into the fuse (shut properly).  So if this is the problem then  Iflyrv10.com door guides will fix the problem as the  door pins are guided into place. If we are saying there is flexing and the pins  pop out then maybe tempory  fix would be what Andre has done in here in  AUS.

  

  

 About to do first  flight in a few weeks and i do not want to have to think about closing a bloody  door or shouls I say a door coming off.

  

 Keep thinking  guys

  

 

<?xml:namespace prefix  = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> reggards Chris 388 

   

  



   [quote][b]

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

The after market door guides seem a good  idea and  I believed that one of the advantages of these was that you  were able to shorten the rods so that if you accidently closed the door  with the handle in the open position the pins would not hit the outside of the  fuse stuffing the paint. This ofcourse means that with the door closed the pins  would go through the after market guide but not the fuse. 

  

 Just a thought

  

 regards Chris

   [quote][b]

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Chris

  6nbsp;

 I have to say I agree with 6nbsp;you E An unclosed door should not result in an major emergency 6nbsp;in an un-pressurised 6nbsp;a/c E This problem C if not corrected will be an accident waiting to happen E It is a bit like the 6nbsp;Far Side cartoon the had a  2Wings Off 2 button on the arm-rest 6nbsp;of an airline passengers 6nbsp;seat E The questions 6nbsp;is not how to prevent the button being pushed but why it was there in the first pace E

  6nbsp;

 I know the risk can be mitigated by checking C with warning lights etc E But somewhere along the way C the failure chain will catch up with someone E

  6nbsp;

 Flying my Cherokee C part of the passenger 6nbsp;brief is that they should un-latch 6nbsp;the door in the event of an emergency 6nbsp;so the door does not jam upon landing E I am reluctant to use the Auzzie 6nbsp;fix as it may trap you in the a/c in the event of a crash E 

  6nbsp;

 So rather than  2fixes 2 C what would be the  2Gold Standard 2 solution?

  6nbsp;

 Inquiring minds need to know  E E E E

  6nbsp;

 Les 6nbsp;Kearney

  340643

 



---

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

That is the way mine are set up.  After all the discussion, I am considering changing that and lengthening the rods and getting the pin to go through the frame.  Have not really decided yet.  Maybe I will have one of the ME’s here give me an opinion about the strength of the AL block with the two bolts.  My general feeling is that I am ok since those two bolts have a lot of strength in sheer.    

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

801-721-6080  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie McGough

 Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:37 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Doors coming off  

  

     

The after market door guides seem a good idea and  I believed that one of the advantages of these was that you were able to shorten the rods so that if you accidently closed the door with the handle in the open position the pins would not hit the outside of the fuse stuffing the paint. This ofcourse means that with the door closed the pins would go through the after market guide but not the fuse.   

    

   

    

Just a thought  

    

   

    

regards Chris  

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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Chris, I don't know how much can be gleaned from  the latest? incident as some of the posts allude to the door coming off on a  subsequent flight after the 4g crash/landing.

 Maybe there wasn't a straight section left on  this machine. In any case who would go flying in an aircraft with that much  prior damage unless you had a special permit to return it to a maintenance  workshop? Maybe the door popped out during the crunching landing. Have  a look at the deformation on the glareshield. I'd be interested to see what the  damage was/might be where the brace attaches to the cabin cover. I don't think  well made RV-10's have a case of the door falling off, I think it's more a  case of checking to see if it's properly closed. The same thing you'd do when  you jumped in the family car.

 Maybe the answer is a safety catch, sliding window  bolt variety, at the rear attached to the lower door aimed down to the  inside of the lower sill?

 I'm interested in hearing Rene's report on the door  in flight flexing because I reckon this would be the most likely scenario to  ripping a door off especially if a significant gap opens up towards the  airflow.

 John 40315 

 [quote]   ---

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

I did not get to check the in flight flexing today…….will have to fly some other day to do it….darn.  My wife is out playing this weekend…hockey….so it might not be able tofly until some time next week.  

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

801-721-6080  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Dunne

 Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 4:36 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Doors coming off  

  

     

Chris, I don't know how much can be gleaned from the latest? incident as some of the posts allude to the door coming off on a subsequent flight after the 4g crash/landing.  

    

Maybe there wasn't a straight section left on this machine. In any case who would go flying in an aircraft with that much prior damage unless you had a special permit to return it to a maintenance workshop? Maybe the door popped out during the crunching landing. Have a look at the deformation on the glareshield. I'd be interested to see what the damage was/might be where the brace attaches to the cabin cover. I don't think well made RV-10's have a case of the door falling off, I think it's more a case of checking to see if it's properly closed. The same thing you'd do when you jumped in the family car.  

    

Maybe the answer is a safety catch, sliding window bolt variety, at the rear attached to the lower door aimed down to the inside of the lower sill?  

    

I'm interested in hearing Rene's report on the door in flight flexing because I reckon this would be the most likely scenario to ripping a door off especially if a significant gap opens up towards the airflow.  

    

John 40315   

  [quote]    

---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

The Gold standard solution is found on the SR22; forward  hinged door and rear/top/bottom latch pin/pins. That solution would require some  major re engineering by Vans which is unlikely. In the short run, install a  small handle on the aft part of the door to aid in closing from the inside on  the ground. Then check your pins by feel or use the system. Do not shorten the  pins so that they do not penetrate the door jambs; this is a recipe for disaster  if the beveled tips hit anything where they will be stressed/abraded  etc. Eventually they may be just short enough to slip out, given the flex of the  door and the flex of the rear pushrod. IIRC it was bent slightly to match the  curvature of the door. For 29 years I closed the passenger door on my Cardinal  RG; not because it would depart the aircraft but the passenger could damage the  door. The handle had a shear pin in it so that when the locking bar was pushed  aft, it would shear if the bar was not properly positioned and was striking the  door frame. I always locked the door to prevent my passenger from disabling the  aircraft and creating a maintenance job for me. IIRC I posted a  passenger warning placard in the 10 stating that my aircraft does not conform to  certification standards. In my cases it meets or exceeds them but in the  case of the doors I don't think it does.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES  KEARNEY

Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:11 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Doors coming  off

 Chris

 I have to say I agree with you. An unclosed door should not result in  an major emergency in an un-pressurised a/c. This problem, if not  corrected will be an accident waiting to happen. It is a bit like the Far  Side cartoon the had a "Wings Off" button on the arm-rest of an airline  passengers seat. The questions is not how to prevent the button being  pushed but why it was there in the first pace.

 I know the risk can be mitigated by checking, with warning lights etc. But  somewhere along the way, the failure chain will catch up with someone.

 Flying my Cherokee, part of the passenger brief is that they should  un-latch the door in the event of an emergency so the door does not  jam upon landing. I am reluctant to use the Auzzie fix as it may trap you  in the a/c in the event of a crash. 

 So rather than "fixes", what would be the "Gold Standard" solution?

 Inquiring minds need to know ....

 Les Kearney

 #40643

---

tomhanaway

Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Doors coming off

I'd like to see Jesse S. hop in here when he gets a chance.  I understand he's a little busy right now 

  



I looked at his door at Sun & Fun today.  Looks like he added both a small interior handle near the rear of the door and a secondary latch that seals the  inside front side of the door.



Tom H.

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

I looked over the pictures of the door departure and noticed something in the upper hinges.

   

  It looked like the area around the hinges had little resin between the two surfaces.

   

  Also, the screw heads were flattened to bury them in resin so they would not turn when tightened from below. I would guess this was to create a beautiful look to the top of the door with no screw head showing. However, the shear force is absorbed at the large diameter of the screw head and the mating nut surface. Any grinding of the screw head removes area available for shear and its only shear that is securing the top of the door to the hinges. The deeper the screw head is set into the door the less holding strength is available from the fiberglass. So burying the screw heads cause two problems, and if they are over torqued cracking the fiberglass a third problem arises. 

   

  Are  others using this technique to make their doors beautiful?

   

  Look carefully at the rear door guide/protector/fuselage hole - it would appear that the rod never reached far beyond the teflon guide, otherwise the protector would be torn off.

   

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying 



tomhanaway <tomhanaway(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "tomhanaway" 



I'd like to see Jesse S. hop in here when he gets a chance. I understand he's a little busy right now 

[Wink] 



I looked at his door at Sun & Fun today. Looks like he added both a small interior handle near the rear of the door and a secondary latch that seals the inside front side of the door.



Tom H.





Read this [quote][b]

PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Worth mentioning is many light twins,for example a c-310 can lose a door if it comes unlatched during flight.This is clearly creating a problem on the rv-10 and we need to come up with a secondary latch system that can be released from the outside if rescue is necesary.I used a canopy latch on the forward bottom of the doors.A seemingly simple solution but does not allow rescuers easy access to the cabin.Do cessna aircraft allow outside door entry if the handles are in the down position as in normal flight?                        728DD 175 hours

**************

It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

      (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)  [quote][b]

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: Doors coming off

Typically, a fastened shear joint is designed so the entire shear

force is transferred in the shank of the fastener, not in the head,

even in a countersunk head. Also, having threads in bearing on the

structure is a no-no. Tension loads would be transferred by the

fastener head and nut, but typical aircraft design practice is to

design for shear loadings at joints whereever possible. That said, I

don't think there's anything wrong with the design of the -10 doors.

If the latching pins are engaged well, the hinges look robust engough

for the air loadings. As is inherent with gull-wing door designs, once

a door opens in flight and swings out past the boundary layer, it

basically becomes another short, fat wing. At 80+ knots, that results

in a rather large increase in the forces acting on the door and would

result in failures as seen in this discussion. I'd like to see if

there's a history of door failures on certified aircraft with

gull-wing doors.



KH



On 4/11/08, Bill DeRouchey <billderou(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I looked over the pictures of the door departure and noticed something in

 the upper hinges.



   It looked like the area around the hinges had little resin between the two

 surfaces.



   Also, the screw heads were flattened to bury them in resin so they would

 not turn when tightened from below. I would guess this was to create a

 beautiful look to the top of the door with no screw head showing. However,

 the shear force is absorbed at the large diameter of the screw head and the

 mating nut surface. Any grinding of the screw head removes area available

 for shear and its only shear that is securing the top of the door to the

 hinges. The deeper the screw head is set into the door the less holding

 strength is available from the fiberglass. So burying the screw heads cause

 two problems, and if they are over torqued cracking the fiberglass a third

 problem arises.



   Are others using this technique to make their doors beautiful?



   Look carefully at the rear door guide/protector/fuselage hole - it would

 appear that the rod never reached far beyond the teflon guide, otherwise the

 protector would be torn off.

   Bill DeRouchey

   N939SB, flying



 tomhanaway <tomhanaway(at)comcast.net> wrote:

   



 I'd like to see Jesse S. hop in here when he gets a chance. I understand

 he's a little busy right now

 [Wink]



 I looked at his door at Sun & Fun today. Looks like he added both a small

 interior handle near the rear of the door and a secondary latch that seals

 the inside front side of the door.



 Tom H.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176289#176289

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: Doors coming off

Thanks Tim. Just my opinion: mag sensors are notorious for having a

wide sensing range. I think micro-switches can be rigged to a finer

setting to verify proper pin engagement.

On 4/11/08, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 That's what the door sensors van's provides do...they're magnetic

 sensors, and there are magnets in the tips of the pins.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 James K Hovis wrote:

 > 

 >

 > Being a lurker, I've read this thread with interest. Just to make a

 > general comment, for good structural "retention" of the door, I feel

 > the best set-up is for the door pins to pass completely through the

 > opening frame on the fuselage. Of course, I'm basing this on the

 > pictures I've seen so far. How does the warning light system "sense"

 > full locking with the "blueprint" set-up for the door? Seems to me it

 > would be a simple matter to add a couple micro-switches to the back

 > side of the door frames so they light up (or better turn off a light)

 > when the pins are fully engaged into the frames therefore indicating

 > proper lock.

 >

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Doors coming off

Door latch picture ... (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)



James, I agree about the micro switches -- if you play with the magnetic switches provided (ohm meter on the leads while you move the magnet around the sensor), there's really quite a wide range.  I was resigned to adjusting it while installed to find a true closed reading, but I'd prefer micro switches.



Thanks, Tim -- the bevel only makes sense to pull the door in.



And I'm really not comfortable with a threaded joint anywhere near the shear point.



Later, - Lew



do not archive

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_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Doors coming off

You have threads (plans call for a tap) there already; its just a question

of whether you fill them with something. The bevel is required but the

length of it is the question. Van's bevels range in size from .5" to '9".



--

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Doors coming off

Ahhh, the threads in the end of the rod.  



I had asked earlier (and don't remember a response) about if the only reason to thread the end of the rod was to put a center marker in it to mark the sill.  If so, seems like overkill when a marker can be put in there to do the same thing (a pencil is the right diameter), whether threads weaken the rod or not.  



Folks are leaving the bolt in there and grinding it flush with the taper for strength?  The AL rod isn't strong enough?  OK, but I didn't like the idea of screwing in a bullet tip to extend the rod -- which I envision having to grind off the original taper, then the threaded joint would be very close to a shear point ... ?



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

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