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Kirk Smith

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Re: To cut or not to cut?

"I do have inspection holes but it's very hard to see very small hair-line 

cracks"



Very well   .....I wish you good luck in resolving your dilemma to your satisfaction. By the way I looked at the pic of your plane and it certainly is a sharp looking Kolb.



Do not archive

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: To cut or not to cut?

I would not part with the airplane...  The firestar is a great plane, and I would also keep the 503 on it, just respect VNE and rough air.  What some people do not understand is that fatigue adds up over time to the point that a structure will fail one day with NORMAL loads.  If there is fatigue in those ribs, keeping the loads down at this point will not keep you safe.  If you read about fatigue failures in structures, its usually a result of many many hours of stress, and the structure finally breaks under NORMAL loads....



The angle aluminum and modification John recommends is only a couple pounds...  Given the weight and power you have, a couple extra pounds will make no difference, we are talkng about less than a 1% change in gross weight.  Not enough to worry about.   You have flown the plane, if you like the way it flys at the heavy weight, keep flying it heavy, no need to trade your plane in.   Just do the little bit of work that is need to make the ribs strong enough to handle the extra load.  The firestar II is designed to be flown at those weights, so obviously the basic structure is very capable of handling it... Except for those 5 ribs, which is a pretty easy and inexpensive fix.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

On Mar 4, 2006, at 4:31 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Except for those 5 ribs, which is a pretty easy and inexpensive fix.


	




  We can tell how much Kolb RE-building experience you have.

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 

In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:06:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

ul15rhb(at)juno.com writes:



The  Original 5-rib wing Firestar had a gross weight limit of 535  lbs.

 

Ralph/John Murr/All,

 

Speaking of the original 1985 design model FireStar with 5 ribs and a  Rotax 

377 engine.  I bought a kit from Homer on June 30, 1989 and have  the plans 

and builders manual.

 

I have never seen the gross weight stated in print on any of the  

documentation I have, but on page 50 of the builders manual I quote, "The VNE of  the 

FireStar in calm air is 75 MPH.  As the air gets turbulent, reduce your  speed 

accordingly.  This airplane has a light wing loading.  Stresses  go way up if it 

is fully loaded and the air gets rough".

 

I have replaced the 377 engine (at 425 hrs) with a 447, added the  1-1/8 inch 

gear legs, brakes, 3/4 canopy, baggage board behind the  seat and have a 

second chance chute above my head between the wings.   Instrumentation is ASI, 

EGT, CHT, RPM, compass and ALT.  Otherwise it  is stock with a 5 gal. fuel tank.  

Empty wt. (as an UL) is  somewhat fat at about 280 lbs.  With full fuel (5 

gal. X 6 lb.  p/gal.) of 30 lbs., plus my 140 lbs., my gross is at 450 lbs.  On 

occasion,  when I go on a long X-country, I carry 4 more gals. of fuel in two  

cans as baggage, adding another 24 lbs., for a gross of 474 lbs.  Probably  

more, as I didn't include weight for a small tool kit, tie down ropes, fuel  

transfer hose, camera, cell phone, wallet full of $$ and other pocket  items.

 

I am a very conservative flyer and do worry about overstressing the plane  in 

rough air, so I always slow down for a more comfortable ride for  me.

 

John M, you will have to make your own decision on what to do.   Modifying 

the wing as John H suggested will add strength, but it also  adds weight.  

Calculate your gross weight carefully.  Because of your  personal body weight, you 

might be better off with a two place Kolb.   By the way, I've been to 

Smoketown's breakfast fly-in several times in my  Kolb.  Weather permitting I will see 

you there this year.

 

Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive



  




	


Bill,



You should be advised that the Memorial Day Fly-in isn't going to be at 

Smoketown this year.  Seems that some disgruntled and "wiser" heads have 

decided to move it to Lancaster Airport which is a controlled airspace.  

I have met you several times at Smoketown and Homers and thought you 

should be aware!



Terry -  FireFly  #95



DO NOT ARCHIVE

Earl Zimmerman

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Elizabethtown, PA

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

John Murr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Anybody out there interested in a Firestar?  


	


I think that you should sell it to me real cheap cause I'll soon be down 

to only one plane in my hanger      ~ Earl

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

At 01:31 PM 3/4/06 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



What some people do not understand is that fatigue adds up over time to the point that a structure will fail one day with NORMAL loads. 


	


David, and others,



I have to take exception to this statement.  It is simply not true.  If the 

structure is designed so that it will sustain "normal" loads and remain with 

in the elastic limit of the structural material, no fatigue will take place. 

 Fatigue can only take place when the material is over stressed beyond its 

elastic limit.  When the elastic limit is surpassed, the material will take 

a permanent set, but in most cases it will not fail.  To get it to fail, the 

same previously over stressed area must be repeatedly stressed in opposite 

directions until a crack appears.  Once the crack is initiated, structural 

strength is greatly reduced.  The only way this scenario can be played out 

is if the structure was inadequately designed, or the structure was 

subjected to repeated abuse.



Stay within the design operating limits (normal loads), and you will most 

likely will never over stress the structure.  I believe my FireFly receives 

it greatest structural loading upon landing.  If you do not beat up your 

plane, it will take care of you.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

LOL!





---

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

What about 900 hours of engine vibration?

---

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

At 07:50 PM 3/4/06 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



What about 900 hours of engine vibration?




	


John,



 	  Quote: 	
		  From my experience with the 447 on the FireFly, it shook the heck out of 

things at 2,000 rpm or less, but ran smooth at cruise speeds.  The only area 
	


of concern I have on the FireFly is the left aileron/flaperon.  The most 

inboard piano hinge pin seems to wear out.  Since I have removed much of the 

slack from the aileron control system, it seems to be ok. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

On Mar 4, 2006, at 7:50 PM, John Murr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 What about 900 hours of engine vibration?


	




John,

your biggest concern on a high time air frame should be rust and  

corrosion not "metal fatigue".

djwatson(at)olg.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

As a former owner of that very same Firestar, I agree with Eugene, it's 

a great plane and I believe just as safe as it ever was.  P.S. took it to 

Sun-N-Fun a few times and received Reserve Grand Champion or something on 

more than one occasion. I have seen pictures of it on web sites all over the 

place and took some pride in the fact that it used to be mine. When I owned 

it, it was powered by the 503 and it also had a BRS in it, sounds like the 

BRS is no longer installed.  I put very few hours on it, but it had nothing 

to do with the plane, it was all a life timing thing.



    When I first purchased the Firestar, I had some concern about it having 

a 503 on it but was told by a few folks that I respected that you can never 

have too much power as it might come in handy some day. I personally had 

never operated it at full power as it just wasn't needed.  That Firestar was 

my first plane.  When I was finished with my UL flight instruction in a Rans 

S-12, I jumped into the Firestar and had no problems flying it.  By the way, 

I'm 6 foot and 210 pounds.



    I have been sitting here reading all of the E-Mail about cutting, adding 

more ribs, etc. and it has just made me sick thinking about it.  I have seen 

a man who went from being very happy with his Firestar to a person who it 

now seems is afraid of the plane and might have no interest in flying it 

again. I hope I'm wrong.



    Have you ever seen the video of the Kolb being tested to destruction? 

Dennis did up in PA. The Kolb is the only UL that I know of that has been 

tested to destruction and it took a lot to do it!!  One of the reasons I 

wanted a Kolb.



    This has been more than I ever have responded to any E-mail.  Wish I 

knew how to type fast.   I'm with Eugene on the offer, but I'll up it by 

500.00  Again, just joking!!!



    John, you have a great Firestar on your hands that has proven itself 

many many times over.



V/R

Dennis

---

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

The BRS was a BRS 1 I believe.  It was mounted inside the fuselage.  I 

removed it  because it was 12 years out of date.  I have a new BRS 5, but I 

haven't mounted it yet. It won't fit inside, so I have to mount it on top. 

It's on my  "to do: list.

---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: Re: To cut or not to cut?

 	  jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: 	
		  



David, and others,



I have to take exception to this statement.  It is simply not true.  If the 

structure is designed so that it will sustain "normal" loads and remain with 

in the elastic limit of the structural material, no fatigue will take place. 

 Fatigue can only take place when the material is over stressed beyond its 

elastic limit.  When the elastic limit is surpassed, the material will take 

a permanent set, but in most cases it will not fail.  To get it to fail, the 

same previously over stressed area must be repeatedly stressed in opposite 

directions until a crack appears.  Once the crack is initiated, structural 

strength is greatly reduced.  The only way this scenario can be played out 

is if the structure was inadequately designed, or the structure was 

subjected to repeated abuse.



Stay within the design operating limits (normal loads), and you will most 

likely will never over stress the structure.  I believe my FireFly receives 

it greatest structural loading upon landing.  If you do not beat up your 

plane, it will take care of you.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive 	




You could not be more wrong about metal fatigue.  In a perfect world where airplanes are designed perfectly parts would not fatigue, but we live in the real world and almost EVERY airplane ever designed has had failrues due to fatigue under normal operating conditions.   From the first commercial jet, the Comet, metal fatigue started in the window frames and the airplanes started comming apart only with many thousands of pressure cycles, under NORMAL loads.  I remember some of the L-1011's that I flew going into heavy maintenance due to wing spar cracks that developed over time and NORMAL use.  DC-3's have lost wings after developing cracks in the wings... The governer of one of the western states was killed years back when his DC-3 came apart in flight in normal conditions.  Many general aviation airplanes develop cracks in the tails, and AD's require thier inspection for cracks every so many hours (fatigue).  Bottom line is fatigue cracks have been a constant problem in every type of plane from the smallest to the biggest.  Anyone that says a plane will not fail due to metal fatigue under normal conditions obviously does not know what he is talking about.



As far as the ultralight in question, the owner was obviously wondering about this posibility prior to this discussion, why do you think he asked the question in the first place?  This particular firestar is flown very heavy, and has been subjected to aerobatics (overloads), is very high time, pretty much the same scenario that caused another Firestars wing to fail...   I just wonder how you can totally discount the possiblity that it could happen again. 



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Mike Schnabel

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

Dennis, I would love to see the video of the Kolb flown to the point of destruction. Do you have a copy? Is it on the internet anywhere? If not, and if i could get a copy, i would be glad to post it on the net for all the Kolb'ers to view. So anyone that has a copy, please contact me.

   

  Mike S

  Manchester TN

  Firestar 2 503

   

  do not archive

   

   

  Have you ever seen the video of the Kolb being tested to 

destruction?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis did up in PA. The Kolb is the only UL that I know of that has 

been
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   tested to destruction and it took a lot to do it!!

   
	


  



Dennis Watson <djwatson(at)olg.com> wrote:

  



As a former owner of that very same Firestar, I agree with Eugene, it's 

a great plane and I believe just as safe as it ever was. P.S. took it to 

Sun-N-Fun a few times and received Reserve Grand Champion or something on 

more than one occasion. I have seen pictures of it on web sites all over the 

place and took some pride in the fact that it used to be mine. When I owned 

it, it was powered by the 503 and it also had a BRS in it, sounds like the 

BRS is no longer installed. I put very few hours on it, but it had nothing 

to do with the plane, it was all a life timing thing.



When I first purchased the Firestar, I had some concern about it having 

a 503 on it but was told by a few folks that I respected that you can never 

have too much power as it might come in handy some day. I personally had 

never operated it at full power as it just wasn't needed. That Firestar was 

my first plane. When I was finished with my UL flight instruction in a Rans 

S-12, I jumped into the Firestar and had no problems flying it. By the way, 

I'm 6 foot and 210 pounds.



I have been sitting here reading all of the E-Mail about cutting, adding 

more ribs, etc. and it has just made me sick thinking about it. I have seen 

a man who went from being very happy with his Firestar to a person who it 

now seems is afraid of the plane and might have no interest in flying it 

again. I hope I'm wrong.



Have you ever seen the video of the Kolb being tested to destruction? 

Dennis did up in PA. The Kolb is the only UL that I know of that has been 

tested to destruction and it took a lot to do it!! One of the reasons I 

wanted a Kolb.



This has been more than I ever have responded to any E-mail. Wish I 

knew how to type fast. I'm with Eugene on the offer, but I'll up it by 

500.00 Again, just joking!!!



John, you have a great Firestar on your hands that has proven itself 

many many times over.



V/R

Dennis

---

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

In a message dated 3/4/2006 6:25:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net writes:



You  should be advised that the Memorial Day Fly-in isn't going to be at  

Smoketown this year.  Seems that some disgruntled and "wiser" heads  have 

decided to move it to Lancaster Airport which is a controlled  airspace.  





Hi Terry,

 

Oh no!  That's terrible!  What are they thinking?

 

Well, that lets me out.  I'm not equipped to fly in controlled  airspace.  

But, if Smoketown is still UL friendly, I guess there's  nothing to stop us from 

going there on our own.  We can still fly in  and have breakfast or lunch.  

Just have to walk up the street to that  great little restaurant around the 

corner.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

 

Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

All you need is a radio to fly into class D airspace.  There are ultralights 

based there.  Don't let this discourage you from attending.



---

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 

In a message dated 3/4/2006 6:25:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net writes:



You  should be advised that the Memorial Day Fly-in isn't going to be at  

Smoketown this year.  Seems that some disgruntled and "wiser" heads  have 

decided to move it to Lancaster Airport which is a controlled  airspace.  





Hi Terry,

 

Oh no!  That's terrible!  What are they thinking?

 

Well, that lets me out.  I'm not equipped to fly in controlled  airspace.  

But, if Smoketown is still UL friendly, I guess there's  nothing to stop us from 

going there on our own.  We can still fly in  and have breakfast or lunch.  

Just have to walk up the street to that  great little restaurant around the 

corner.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

 

Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive



  




	


Bill,  If you and your buddy decide to fly into Smoketown  on Memorial 

Day any way let me know and I will join you.  I didn't lose anything at 

Lancaster Airport and don't intend to go there to find it.  Smoketown is 

more than UL friendly all of the time!!!!!!



Terry



DO NOT ARCHIVE

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

For strength, look at this:  http://www,angelfire,com/rpg/ronoy/B-17.png

regards,

Bob N.

a58r(at)verizon.net



do not rechive

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

Geez, I've got to take some meds for my peripheral neuropathy! Or  

maybe taking my boxing gloves off!



Try this    http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/B-17.png

regards,

Bob N.

a58r(at)verizon.net



do not archive

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: To cut or not to cut?

Hi Bob,



        That worked gooder!  Lots of daylight under that vertical stab. 

Great pic!



Ed in JXN

Do not archive.



---

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