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fritzsch(at)eskimo.com
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 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim |
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I went to AirVenture with the intention of building a servo controlled rudder trim system into my rudder as I complete it. AirVenture gave me a good opportunity to look at the different implementations on flying RV-10s. There were quite a few. I stopped by Van's tent on several occasions and asked two different employees (those I consider two of the most knowledgeable) what Van's view is of servo controlled rudder trim. Both replied (independently of course) that it is not needed. That left me wondering about the rudder trim on commercially built, high performance aircraft. What better place to find out than to stroll over to the commercial exhibits. Here is what I found.
[img]cid:part1.06080908.01090301(at)eskimo.com[/img] The Bonanza has a 2.25" by 11" trim tab held onto the rudder by a comparable sized strip of aluminum on each side riveted to the rudder and to the trim tab.
[img]cid:part2.01030908.05090104(at)eskimo.com[/img] The Cirrus has a 2.5" by 8" tab riveted to one side of the rudder.
[img]cid:part3.02030405.01080004(at)eskimo.com[/img] The Columbia/Cessna 350/400 has the trim tab riveted to one side of the rudder. It is also slotted as shown in the picture.
After talking with several Mooney salespeople, I was told that the airplane has a servo that is linked to the rudder control rod in a manner that effectively changes its length providing a trim effect. I was told by Cessna salespeople that the Skylane uses a servo and spring arrangement to adjust the tension on the rudder control cables. Thus there are a variety of methods used by the commercial manufacturers, almost as many as used by RV-10 builders. 
Upon reflection, I have decided to rivet a tab, size yet to be determined, to one side of the rudder. It is a simple, inexpensive, ground adjustable solution in use by a number of high performance commercial airplane manufacturers.
Dave
| Quote: | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Fritzsche
40813
Puyallup, WA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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vhmum(at)bigpond.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim |
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I tend to agree with Vans. We are on a trip around Australia at the moment so with only 20 hours on the plane when we left we just bent a 3 inch square piece of 032 and taped to rudder after adjustment we need slight right rudder for climb and then in cruise feet off and ball in the middle. Done 15 hours with it on and works well. Will paint and rivet on when we get home .
Chris
VH-ICY
[quote] ---
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coop85(at)cableone.net
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim |
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Dave,
I flew with a fixed tab taped in place for over 200 hours. It certainly was effective, however I ended up going with a cockpit adjustable tab as I found the trim required was inconsistent. You can probably find some previous threads in the archives, but one prominent theory is the nose wheel doesn’t always center after takeoff leaving a slight yaw input. I can’t say for certain, but no matter how I set the fixed trim tab it would work great on some flights but on others I’d be leaning on the rudder pedal slightly for over 2 hours and I got tired of it. I don’t mess with the adjustable tab now very often, but it’s handy to have when I do need to make a slight change.
Marcus
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Fritzsche (Building)
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:31 PM
To: RV-10 Matronics
Subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim
I went to AirVenture with the intention of building a servo controlled rudder trim system into my rudder as I complete it. AirVenture gave me a good opportunity to look at the different implementations on flying RV-10s. There were quite a few. I stopped by Van's tent on several occasions and asked two different employees (those I consider two of the most knowledgeable) what Van's view is of servo controlled rudder trim. Both replied (independently of course) that it is not needed. That left me wondering about the rudder trim on commercially built, high performance aircraft. What better place to find out than to stroll over to the commercial exhibits. Here is what I found.
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C8FF81.52310EF0[/img]The Bonanza has a 2.25" by 11" trim tab held onto the rudder by a comparable sized strip of aluminum on each side riveted to the rudder and to the trim tab.
[img]cid:image004.jpg(at)01C8FF81.52310EF0[/img]The Cirrus has a 2.5" by 8" tab riveted to one side of the rudder.
[img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01C8FF81.52310EF0[/img]The Columbia/Cessna 350/400 has the trim tab riveted to one side of the rudder. It is also slotted as shown in the picture.
After talking with several Mooney salespeople, I was told that the airplane has a servo that is linked to the rudder control rod in a manner that effectively changes its length providing a trim effect. I was told by Cessna salespeople that the Skylane uses a servo and spring arrangement to adjust the tension on the rudder control cables. Thus there are a variety of methods used by the commercial manufacturers, almost as many as used by RV-10 builders.
Upon reflection, I have decided to rivet a tab, size yet to be determined, to one side of the rudder. It is a simple, inexpensive, ground adjustable solution in use by a number of high performance commercial airplane manufacturers.
Dave
| Quote: | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dave Fritzsche40813Puyallup, WA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim |
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Dave, did you abandon the servo control idea? Nice pictures.
John Cox
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Fritzsche (Building)
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:31 PM
To: RV-10 Matronics
Subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim
I went to AirVenture with the intention of building a servo controlled rudder trim system into my rudder as I complete it. AirVenture gave me a good opportunity to look at the different implementations on flying RV-10s. There were quite a few. I stopped by Van's tent on several occasions and asked two different employees (those I consider two of the most knowledgeable) what Van's view is of servo controlled rudder trim. Both replied (independently of course) that it is not needed. That left me wondering about the rudder trim on commercially built, high performance aircraft. What better place to find out than to stroll over to the commercial exhibits. Here is what I found.
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C8FF71.18CEC310[/img]The Bonanza has a 2.25" by 11" trim tab held onto the rudder by a comparable sized strip of aluminum on each side riveted to the rudder and to the trim tab.
[img]cid:image004.jpg(at)01C8FF71.18CEC310[/img]The Cirrus has a 2.5" by 8" tab riveted to one side of the rudder.
[img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01C8FF71.18CEC310[/img]The Columbia/Cessna 350/400 has the trim tab riveted to one side of the rudder. It is also slotted as shown in the picture.
After talking with several Mooney salespeople, I was told that the airplane has a servo that is linked to the rudder control rod in a manner that effectively changes its length providing a trim effect. I was told by Cessna salespeople that the Skylane uses a servo and spring arrangement to adjust the tension on the rudder control cables. Thus there are a variety of methods used by the commercial manufacturers, almost as many as used by RV-10 builders.
Upon reflection, I have decided to rivet a tab, size yet to be determined, to one side of the rudder. It is a simple, inexpensive, ground adjustable solution in use by a number of high performance commercial airplane manufacturers.
Dave
| Quote: | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dave Fritzsche40813Puyallup, WA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim |
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For what it's worth, (probably nothing), I agree with both ends
of the discussion. I flew for what, maybe 285 hours, with a stick-on
trim wedge. I wasn't totally displeased. It worked OK, and did get
rid of 90% of the out-of-trim on the rudder. My position these
days is that adjustable trim is great, and if you plan an electric
version, do yourself a favor by at least pulling wires for it while
you assemble the tail for final assembly. But I never called it a
NECESSARY option to have adjustable trim. I think that some people
will be plenty satisfied without it.
The rub comes, as Marcus points out, that the trim isn't always going
to be consistent, and depending on speed, altitude, loadings, or
whatever, you may want more or less trim. Certainly on a 9 hour
flying day, I got annoyed by keeping my foot on the pedal for hours
on end....so that the plane would not fly in a slight bank. Yes,
if your rudder trim is out, you will have a low wing with the Autopilot
on.....and as you get cozy and used to your plane, you will notice
that effect and over time it gets more annoying to hold your foot
there on the pedal.
I'm also all for the actual aerodynamics of actually trimming your
rudder with an adjustable tab, just like you do with the elevator.
I think it gives the most real trim effect that puts things into
that comfortable equilibrium just like when you trim out the elevator.
The aileron trim in the RV-10 is spring/servo driven and although
I feel it is plenty good for the 10, it does feel like more of
a "hack" than truly trimming....and it does add some spring
tension to the controls. Is this bad? Not really....and I don't
think that it would be so bad to do a mechanical trim on the
rudder, either. Both can get the job done just fine. If it
weren't just so simple to throw the servo in the rudder, certainly
I'd be attracted to the other methods too, but I can't imagine
being as satisfied in the end as right now I'm completely satisfied...
especially when coupled to Bob's "Safety-Trim" so I have the fast/slow
speed settings. It's a completely non-interfering way to accomplish
the job.
As for Van's opinion.... Sure, I'm positive that they'd say "nah,
it's not needed to have adjustable trim." We've all learned what
the Van's style is...simple, cheap, and VFR. The catch is, many of
us want slick, comfortably, advanced IFR aircraft. So our opinion
isn't really the same all the time. With something like rudder
trim, it doesn't matter so much if you pick a side, or have a
strong opinion....it's not one of the biggest issues you'll face.
But, it IS one of the things that is easier dealt with BEFORE
you are flying than after. Unfortunately, it probably isn't
until you have 60-80 hours on the plane, including some good long
X/C time, until you'll actually SEE what your opinion actually is.
There's nothing like droning along in your RV-10 for some good X/C
time, reflecting on your choices, to understand if those past choices
and opinions were on the mark or not.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Marcus Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | Dave,
I flew with a fixed tab taped in place for over 200 hours. It
certainly was effective, however I ended up going with a cockpit
adjustable tab as I found the trim required was inconsistent. You can
probably find some previous threads in the archives, but one prominent
theory is the nose wheel doesn’t always center after takeoff leaving a
slight yaw input. I can’t say for certain, but no matter how I set the
fixed trim tab it would work great on some flights but on others I’d be
leaning on the rudder pedal slightly for over 2 hours and I got tired of
it. I don’t mess with the adjustable tab now very often, but it’s handy
to have when I do need to make a slight change.
Marcus
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave
Fritzsche (Building)
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:31 PM
*To:* RV-10 Matronics
*Subject:* Reflections on Rudder Trim
I went to AirVenture with the intention of building a servo controlled
rudder trim system into my rudder as I complete it. AirVenture gave me
a good opportunity to look at the different implementations on flying
RV-10s. There were quite a few. I stopped by Van's tent on several
occasions and asked two different employees (those I consider two of the
most knowledgeable) what Van's view is of servo controlled rudder trim.
Both replied (independently of course) that it is not needed. That left
me wondering about the rudder trim on commercially built, high
performance aircraft. What better place to find out than to stroll over
to the commercial exhibits. Here is what I found.
The Bonanza has a 2.25" by 11" trim tab held onto the rudder by a
comparable sized strip of aluminum on each side riveted to the rudder
and to the trim tab.
The Cirrus has a 2.5" by 8" tab riveted to one side of the rudder.
The Columbia/Cessna 350/400 has the trim tab riveted to one side of the
rudder. It is also slotted as shown in the picture.
After talking with several Mooney salespeople, I was told that the
airplane has a servo that is linked to the rudder control rod in a
manner that effectively changes its length providing a trim effect. I
was told by Cessna salespeople that the Skylane uses a servo and spring
arrangement to adjust the tension on the rudder control cables. Thus
there are a variety of methods used by the commercial manufacturers,
almost as many as used by RV-10 builders.
Upon reflection, I have decided to rivet a tab, size yet to be
determined, to one side of the rudder. It is a simple, inexpensive,
ground adjustable solution in use by a number of high performance
commercial airplane manufacturers.
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Fritzsche
40813
Puyallup, WA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim |
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I fought with an adjustable tab at every fuel stop, all 11.7 hours out to OSH and 9.5 hours back West. It got better but I had visions of Vic laughing in my ear and Tim saying in the other … "Use the Force - Luke". Fabrication of a control surface trim tab will provide you more brownie points on the new FAA Amateur Built Task List being imposed in November. Unless of course you are using a Commercial Build Operator to skirt the rules.
YMMV
John Cox
#40600
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Fritzsche (Building)
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Reflections on Rudder Trim
I had abandoned the idea, but the discussion has caused me to reconsider the issue. I need to make a decision by the end of the week as I will be in the Portland area and can pick up the parts from Vans if I go that route.
Dave
John Cox wrote:
Dave, did you abandon the servo control idea? Nice pictures.
John Cox
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Dave Fritzsche (Building)
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:31 PM
To: RV-10 Matronics
Subject: Reflections on Rudder Trim
I went to AirVenture with the intention of building a servo controlled rudder trim system into my rudder as I complete it. AirVenture gave me a good opportunity to look at the different implementations on flying RV-10s. There were quite a few. I stopped by Van's tent on several occasions and asked two different employees (those I consider two of the most knowledgeable) what Van's view is of servo controlled rudder trim. Both replied (independently of course) that it is not needed. That left me wondering about the rudder trim on commercially built, high performance aircraft. What better place to find out than to stroll over to the commercial exhibits. Here is what I found.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C9009F.59C03AA0[/img]The Bonanza has a 2.25" by 11" trim tab held onto the rudder by a comparable sized strip of aluminum on each side riveted to the rudder and to the trim tab.
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C9009F.59C03AA0[/img]The Cirrus has a 2.5" by 8" tab riveted to one side of the rudder.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C9009F.59C03AA0[/img]The Columbia/Cessna 350/400 has a 3" by 10" trim tab riveted to one side of the rudder. It is also slotted as shown in the picture.
After talking with several Mooney salespeople, I was told that the airplane has a servo that is linked to the rudder control rod in a manner that effectively changes its length providing a trim effect. I was told by Cessna salespeople that the Skylane uses a servo and spring arrangement to adjust the tension on the rudder control cables. Thus there are a variety of methods used by the commercial manufacturers, almost as many as used by RV-10 builders.
Upon reflection, I have decided to rivet a tab, size yet to be determined, to one side of the rudder. It is a simple, inexpensive, ground adjustable solution in use by a number of high performance commercial airplane manufacturers.
Dave
| Quote: | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dave Fritzsche40813Puyallup, WA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| Quote: | | -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dave Fritzsche40813Puyallup, WA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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