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VG affect on stall
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: VG affect on stall

 	  Quote: 	
		   The research has already been done over many years.  I prefer to use the 

 design and placement that a lot of aeronautical engineers have developed 

 over the years than try to guess on VG placement.



 Mike


	




Mike:



Looks like we are getting a lot of VG manufacturers out there all over the 

world.



Do you believe each one of these VG manufacturers has done the research and 

testing to provide precise guidance on where to place their VGs on your 

Kolb's wings?



john h

mkIII-Slick wing!

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: VG affect on stall

At 05:10 PM 12/12/2008, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Looks like we are getting a lot of VG manufacturers out there all over the 

world.



Do you believe each one of these VG manufacturers has done the research 

and testing to provide precise guidance on where to place their VGs on 

your Kolb's wings?


	


Well, as long as the _first_ manufacturer did the R&D... everybody else is 

probably just copying them...



-Dana (still VG-less in CT)

--

  If we wish to "restore" respect for the law, a good start would be to 

pass only laws that people will respect.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: VG affect on stall

> Well, as long as the _first_ manufacturer did the R&D... everybody else 

is

 	  Quote: 	
		   probably just copying them...



 -Dana (still VG-less in CT)


	




Dana:



Do you think any of those vg manufacturers ever went so far as do testing on 

a Kolb wing?



How do we know what precise is, when placing those little buggers on our 

wings and under our tails?



I bet if you get right down to the real nitty gritty, you will discover 

there is very, very little serious flight or simulated flight testing on any 

UL or experiemental homebuilt.



john h

mkIII-Who did his own testing, good and bad.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: VG affect on stall

I doubt that any manufacturer did testing on the Kolb wing, but they have on many other wings.  For the type of airplanes we fly, and the speeds we fly at, VG placement on wings is pretty much universal.  In the video below, you see these guys carefully placing VG's right where they should be, at about 10 % of the chord of the wing behind the leading edge, and equally spaced at about 1 % the span of the wing.  On my Kolb, I placed my VG's at slightly less than 1 % of the span because it is desirable to put each pair of VG's in the rib valleys, all VG's evenly spaced, 2.5 inches spacing between all VG's on my Kolb.  Even more important than the spacing is that VG's be EXACTLY 15 degrees "Nose In " to the relative wind, that is where they create the most efficient "tornado" above the wing without adding excessive drag.   It is necessary to use a template to get the correct angle on VG's.  The video shows how its done  



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQO7SoULc3U&feature=related



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: VG affect on stall

> I doubt that any manufacturer did testing on the Kolb wing, but they have 

on many other wings.





 For the type of airplanes we fly, and the speeds we fly at, VG placement on 

wings is pretty much universal.  In the video below, you see these guys 

carefully placing VG's right where they should be, at about 10 % of the 

chord of the wing behind the leading edge, and equally spaced at about 1 % 

the span of the wing.  On my Kolb, I placed my VG's at slightly less than 1 

% of the span because it is desirable to put each pair of VG's in the rib 

valleys, all VG's evenly spaced, 2.5 inches spacing between all VG's on my 

Kolb.  Even more important than the spacing is that VG's be EXACTLY 15 

degrees "Nose In " to the relative wind, that is where they create the most 

efficient "tornado" above the wing without adding excessive drag.   It is 

necessary to use a template to get the correct angle on VG's.  The video 

shows how its done  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQO7SoULc3U&feature=related



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you 

 could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19134#219134

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: VG affect on stall

Sorry, Gang:



Looks like I fired a blank.



Was thinking about replying and changed my mind.



john h

mkIII





---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: VG affect on stall

Mike,unlike you, I put VG's on every rib of my wings.  I didn't just  stick them on willy-nilly.  I actually picked a spot chord-wise & used  a chalk-line.  And, yes, I used a template to accurately place them.   I actually did quite a bit of testing on my FS II, moving the VG's chordwise  many times.  As it turns out, my original location proved to be the most  effective on MY plane [my VG's are very different from landshorters].

  

 I shared my design with several hundred pilots, mostly Kolbers.  My  design may not be optimal, but for the price, results were very good.   Never had anyone ask for their money back

  

 Howard  Shackleford

FS II

SC  do not archive

  In a message dated 12/12/2008 1:05:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  If you    put VG's on only part of the wing, you only get part of the    benefit.   Being that you guessed where your VG's should go, and    that you guessed on the design of your VG's, its no wonder you ended up with    some bad characteristics and scared yourself.   If you put anything    on the wrong part of a wing, including VG's, they can go from being a benefit    to being dangerous very quickly.   I would not want to be the test    pilot on an airplane with poorly place VG's  [Shocked] 



Here is a    video of some guys that put VG's on their airplane the right way, using    precise measurements to get them in the correct place on the wing, and getting    the exact angles of the VG's to the airstream using templates.   	






Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one plid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

  [quote][b]

etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: VG affect on stall

On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:41 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I bet if you get right down to the real nitty gritty, you will  

 discover there is very, very little serious flight or simulated  

 flight testing on any UL or experiemental homebuilt.


	




John,

I bet if you get right down to the nitty gritty you will discover   

that most experimental planes are never actually involved in any  real  

experimental testing.  "Experimental aircraft " is in that case a  

misnomer.



The actual testing in most cases is not a testing of the plane, but  

most often the real test  is a test that reveals whether a person   

is,  or is not,  a real pilot.



How many Kolb "planes"  ever proved to be unsatisfactory  as a flying  

experiment?

How many Kolb "pilots" ever proved to be  unsatisfactory as a flying  

experiment?



In most cases it is the pilot that is ,,,,,,,,,,, "EXPERIMENTAL"



It is always true in my case anyways ,,,,,,, because the EXPERIENCE is  

always mine.



I am always "experimental" ,,,,,,,,,,,, every once in a while  my  

plane is also.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: VG affect on stall

> In most cases it is the pilot that is ,,,,,,,,,,, "EXPERIMENTAL"

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 It is always true in my case anyways ,,,,,,, because the EXPERIENCE is 

 always mine.



 I am always "experimental" ,,,,,,,,,,,, every once in a while  my  plane 

 is also.


	


Gene Z:



Good point.



True in my case.



Was and still is a big learning curve flying these little airplanes.



Up until 1990, I flew the single place Kolbs.  Never had any professional 

instruction.  Never had a check ride.  Never had another pilot ride along to 

see if what I was doing was right or wrong.



In the Army it was a constant series of check rides and standardization.  I 

enjoy the freedom of my sport, but it can lead to some serious problems if I 

let it.  Sometimes I don't know if I am letting it or not.



This morning I am going to the airstrip to see if I caught anything.  Put 

out two big rat traps with peanut butter.  Used safety wire to secure them 

in place, in case I get a really big one that wants to walk off with my 

traps.



I notices yesterday the four trays of Decon were cleaned out.  I put them 

out and did not have a chance to check them for 48 hours.



The glue traps had caught some pretty big grass hoppers, but that's all.



Brother Jim has volunteered to sew me up some more seat belts and shoulder 

harnesses.



I discovered the DRE 6000 ANR headsets are coming back.  Aircraft Spruce has 

them for 359.00.  Wiring in my old set got chewed up, plus they are getting 

on in age and hours.  I ordered some new ones last night, but they were back 

ordered.  I like the DRE6000 because I can plug them into the aircraft 12VDC 

system and not have to worry about batteries, just rats.  



Was 24F this morning.  Must have been the nearness of the full moon last 

night.



john h

mkIII - Putting another log on the fire.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: VG affect on stall

On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:41 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I bet if you get right down to the real nitty gritty, you will  

 discover there is very, very little serious flight or simulated  

 flight testing on any UL or experiemental homebuilt.


	




John,



I bet if you get right down to the nitty gritty you will discover   

that most experimental planes are never actually involved in any  real  

experimental testing.  "Experimental aircraft " is in that case a  

misnomer.



The actual testing in most cases is not a testing of the plane, but  

most often the real test  is a test that reveals whether a person   

is,  or is not,  a real pilot.



How many Kolb "planes"  ever proved to be unsatisfactory  as a flying  

experiment?

How many Kolb "pilots" ever proved to be  unsatisfactory as a flying  

experiment?



In most cases it is the pilot that is ,,,,,,,,,,, "EXPERIMENTAL"



It is always true in my case anyways ,,,,,,, because the EXPERIENCE is  

always mine.



I am always "experimental" ,,,,,,,,,,,, every once in a while  my  

plane is also.

                                                         |

                                             _____|_____

*=======================R=======================*

                                         \             / ^  

\            /

                                                     ( /---\ )

                                                      \___/

                                                    /           \

                                                ()                ()



                            Eugene Zimmerman

etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: VG affect on stall

Oooops,

Looks like I just posted a duplicate.



  Sorry.

Gene



On Dec 13, 2008, at 1:05 PM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:41 PM, John Hauck wrote:



>

> I bet if you get right down to the real nitty gritty, you will  

> discover there is very, very little serious flight or simulated  

> flight testing on any UL or experiemental homebuilt.

 John,



 I bet if you get right down to the nitty gritty you will discover   

 that most experimental planes are never actually involved in any   

 real experimental testing.  "Experimental aircraft " is in that case  

 a misnomer.



 The actual testing in most cases is not a testing of the plane, but  

 most often the real test  is a test that reveals whether a person   

 is,  or is not,  a real pilot.



 How many Kolb "planes"  ever proved to be unsatisfactory  as a  

 flying experiment?

 How many Kolb "pilots" ever proved to be  unsatisfactory as a flying  

 experiment?



 In most cases it is the pilot that is ,,,,,,,,,,, "EXPERIMENTAL"



 It is always true in my case anyways ,,,,,,, because the EXPERIENCE  

 is always mine.



 I am always "experimental" ,,,,,,,,,,,, every once in a while  my  

 plane is also.

                                                        |

                                            _____|_____

 *=======================R=======================*

                                        \             / ^  

 \            /

                                                    ( /---\ )

                                                     \___/

                                                   /           \

                                               ()                ()



                           Eugene Zimmerman

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