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xtra wingtip mods

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icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

We've finished modifying our wing to accept fiberglass wingtips. The tips themselves are also finished and ready for primer. A DAR stopped by and checked over the wingtip mods as well as the rest of the plane. He had no issues with the entire inspection and OK'd us to start covering. 



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/wingtip_modifications.htm



We also ran the engine last week. All seems well with the used engine. We'll leave the engine on until we're finished making the gap seal. Then the whole thing will be taken apart for paint and fabric. Our instalation is a little different than stock. I haven't made a engine webpage yet but when i do i'll post a link.

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

 	  Quote: 	
		   We've finished modifying our wing to accept fiberglass wingtips.

 --------

 Scott


	


Scott/Paul:



Looks good.



I believe you told me what the length of the wing panel was while at the 

Homecoming, but I forgot.  



john h

mkIII   31F and cold at hauck's holler.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: Re: xtra wingtip mods

John,



The wingspan is the same as with the stock wingtip bow. Total wingspan including the glass tip should be within a few inches of the yellow and white factory Xtra.



Scott

31f? that's a heat wave! It's 14f here. 



[/quote]

Scott/Paul:



Looks good.



I believe you told me what the length of the wing panel was while at the 

Homecoming, but I forgot.  



john h

mkIII   31F and cold at hauck's holler.[/quote]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

Scott:



How and where are you all going to attach and rig your aileron counter 

balance weights?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Re: xtra wingtip mods

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Scott:



How and where are you all going to attach and rig your aileron counter 

balance weights?



john h

mkIII 	




John,

The mass balances are nothing but a mechanical drawing right now. As soon as i finish the stress analysis i'll build a mock up and test it per FAA regs. I'll post pictures when we have the load limit testing complete.

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: xtra wingtip mods

Aileron mass balances are tested and built. 



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/AileronMassBalance.htm



I also started the page on the wing center section(gap fill).



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/WingCenterSection.htm



As always, comments and questions are welcome.

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

 	  Quote: 	
		   Aileron mass balances are tested and built.



 http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/AileronMassBalance.htm



 I also started the page on the wing center section(gap fill).



 http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/WingCenterSection.htm



 Scott


	




Morning Scott:



Looks good.



When I built my mkIII in 1991, I knew I needed aileron counter balance 

weights.  Both my Ultrastar and Firestar suffered from aileron flutter.  I 

could not convince Kolb Aircraft I had a flutter problem, so I designed and 

built my own.  Wish I had a photo of them.  They were pretty.  Built similar 

to your design, I used 1/8" aluminum plate instead of 4130 streamlined 

tubing.  My weight was tubular with a turned round nose and tapered tail.  I 

attached them to the inboard end of the aileron.  Early on, during testing, 

I experienced severe aileron flutter them installed.  Happened to be at the 

local airport, landed, and promptly removed them.  Flew to Lakeland, Homer's 

in PA, and OSH, in 1993, always sitting on the edge of my seat trying to 

keep the mkIII close to 80 mph.  A couple over and she would start to 

flutter.  Had a hell of a time trying to fly off a Cessna 210, at OSH, doing 

the photo shoot.  He was trying to slow down to 80 and I had to fly faster 

than 80 to stay up with him.  Think it was Lakeland 1994, Dick Rahill had 

been out flying the Firestar, got caught is a typical Lakeland wind storm, 

was trying to beat feet back to the UL strip, and got into very severe 

aileron flutter.  Now Kolb Aircraft believed their airplanes were 

susceptible to aileron flutter.  In a matter of days I had a copy of the new 

aileron counter balance weights designed and built for the FS.  Their 

factory mkIII never fluttered and they were not convinced it needed them.  I 

flew with the FS counter balance weights on mty 17,400 mile trip to Alaska 

and around the country in 1994.  They were a blessing.  My mkIII has never 

had a hint of aileron flutter since I installed them.  Made my flying 100% 

more comfortable.  Soon after they designed and built aileron counter 

balance weights for the mkIII.



I really like the center section.  Wish I had one similar.  Being an 

amateur, when I built my mkIII, I ended up with the windshield about 6" 

behind the leading edge of the center section.  This is a very effect air 

scoop, dead air.  Randy, at TNK, built me a fairing, but during finishing it 

ended up not fitting correctly.   Another area of dead air is behind the 

doors in the area of both rear quarter windows.  Brother Jim and I have 

talked about the fix for this many times, but never get around to doing it. 

We think a slat, similar to those used on the OH-58 (Bell Jet Ranger) would 

work on the sides, and a lexan or sheet metal fairing to kill the hole 

between the windshield and leading edge of the center section would fix that 

area of drag.  How much more cruise speed would it give us?  Don't know, but 

would be bound to improve some.  I lost 5 mph top end installing the 8" 

Maule Tundra Tail Wheel, but I don't want to give it up because it works so 

well on the ground.  Has tapered roller bearings in the pivot and lasts much 

longer than the bushed pivots.



Oh well, I am happy with an 80 mph cruise.  That has not changed.  If I am 

patient, I eventually get every where I want to go.



Good work guys,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: xtra wingtip mods

John,



Thanks for the words of wisdom. Sometimes we forget how much of a test pilot the was required as the earlier designs evolved.



I'm sure you now know the reason your first mass balances were ineffective was because of the inboard mounting position. That allowed the LE tube to act as a spring and could have well made the problem worse instead of better.



We used your current mass balances for a start on weight needed. I calculated the weight of yours, added a fudge factor, and sized ours to be a little heavier. I'll be able to drill out some of the lead if i need to after the ailerons are covered and painted.



I'll add more info on the center section in the next day or two. I have Paul writing that up for me. It's been a pain in the rear but we both think it will work out well. 



You're right about the area behind the doors. Getting the air to turn there would, if nothing else, help feed air to the bottom half of the prop. Clean air to the prop it always good! We may look at trying something it that area ourselves but not until after the plane is finished and flying.



5mph from just the tail-wheel is a lot!

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

> 5mph from just the tail-wheel is a lot!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Scott


	




Indicated airspeed.  May be like me, getting old and unreliable.  



It is a rather large tail wheel compared to the first one I had on this 

mkIII.  It was the same as what I had on my original Firestar.  The 

snowmobile bogey wheel.  Didn't last long though.  Went through a lot of 

tailwheels until I hit on the present one.  Took Maule that long to design 

and produce something that would last me more than a year or two, back when 

I was flying a bit.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

I also have contemplated a fix for the angle behind the door on a  

MkIII.  The idea of a little air-turning gizmo sticking out

could work but seems unappealing.  The easy one would be a slab of  

foam board attached to the fabric and carved to

provide a better turn.  A little goop and surface tape around the  

edges would do the job.  Laminate the outer surface

with some fine cloth and epoxy and then paint to match.  Weight would  

be small, more than made up for by efficiency.

BB



On 24, Feb 2009, at 10:32 PM, icrashrc wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 John,



 Thanks for the words of wisdom. Sometimes we forget how much of a  

 test pilot the was required as the earlier designs evolved.



 I'm sure you now know the reason your first mass balances were  

 ineffective was because of the inboard mounting position. That  

 allowed the LE tube to act as a spring and could have well made the  

 problem worse instead of better.



 We used your current mass balances for a start on weight needed. I  

 calculated the weight of yours, added a fudge factor, and sized  

 ours to be a little heavier. I'll be able to drill out some of the  

 lead if i need to after the ailerons are covered and painted.



 I'll add more info on the center section in the next day or two. I  

 have Paul writing that up for me. It's been a pain in the rear but  

 we both think it will work out well.



 You're right about the area behind the doors. Getting the air to  

 turn there would, if nothing else, help feed air to the bottom half  

 of the prop. Clean air to the prop it always good! We may look at  

 trying something it that area ourselves but not until after the  

 plane is finished and flying.



 5mph from just the tail-wheel is a lot!



 --------

 Scott



 www.ill-EagleAviation.com



 do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31955#231955

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

Bob, Take a look at what the BD-4 guys do at the windshield posts. Kind of like a venetian blind slat.



Rick



On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 7:21 AM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>

  

 I also have contemplated a fix for the angle behind the door on a MkIII.  The idea of a little air-turning gizmo sticking out

 could work but seems unappealing.  The easy one would be a slab of foam board attached to the fabric and carved to

 provide a better turn.  A little goop and surface tape around the edges would do the job.  Laminate the outer surface

 with some fine cloth and epoxy and then paint to match.  Weight would be small, more than made up for by efficiency.

 BB

 

 On 24, Feb 2009, at 10:32 PM, icrashrc wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "icrashrc" <icrashrc(at)aol.com (icrashrc(at)aol.com)>

 

 John,

 

 Thanks for the words of wisdom. Sometimes we forget how much of a test pilot the was required as the earlier designs evolved.

 

 I'm sure you now know the reason your first mass balances were ineffective was because of the inboard mounting position. That allowed the LE tube to act as a spring and could have well made the problem worse instead of better.

  

 We used your current mass balances for a start on weight needed. I calculated the weight of yours, added a fudge factor, and sized ours to be a little heavier. I'll be able to drill out some of the lead if i need to after the ailerons are covered and painted.

  

 I'll add more info on the center section in the next day or two. I have Paul writing that up for me. It's been a pain in the rear but we both think it will work out well.

 

 You're right about the area behind the doors. Getting the air to turn there would, if nothing else, help feed air to the bottom half of the prop. Clean air to the prop it always good! We may look at trying something it that area ourselves but not until after the plane is finished and flying. 

 

 5mph from just the tail-wheel is a lot!

 

 --------

 Scott

 

 

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231955#231955

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	


 

 

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[b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

The idea of a little air-turning gizmo sticking out could work>>



What about fitting a few VG`s?.



Pat

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

I put a few VGs on the side (rear edge of the doors) of my MKIIIC a few 

years ago. I didn't effect the speed but it did reduce the noise from 

turbulent air hitting the side of the rear cage. My cage is fully enclosed 

like John H's plane.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: xtra wingtip mods

my kolb is ugly enough now.  That would elevate it to creepy.

BB



On 25, Feb 2009, at 3:42 PM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The idea of a little air-turning gizmo sticking out could work>>



 What about fitting a few VG`s?.



 Pat

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