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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

At 12:45 PM 12/15/08 -0000, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Fair enough but is that a technique you would recommend to an inexperienced 

learner? Would you be happy to be told that was the way to do it with only a 

few take offs under your belt. Messing about in ground effect just above the 

stall is not something most instructors would suggest.




	


Pat



No, I do not recommend an inexperienced learner try this technique.  But 

anyone can learn this technique by using a long runway under no wind 

conditions, and then progressing on to low cross wind winds, etc.  The time 

to learn it is when you don't need to use it.  After you land in tall grass 

or water puddles in grass is not the time to make your first attempt.



What I recommend before flying a FireFly and taken from the top of the page 

that I recommended to Jean: 



http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/howtofly.html



"If you have had little to no flight instruction, I strongly urge you get 

flight instruction before attempting your first flight in the FireFly. You 

need to understand the basic rudimentary physical principles of flight, so 

that you will be able to analyze what is going on and so that you can react 

appropriately to the normal unexpected things that happen during any flight. 

During slow flight, you need to understand, experience, and practice how to 

recover from stalls and spins. In addition, during landings you must be able 

to initiate forward slips and side slips to enable you to lose altitude, and 

to handle cross winds. When all of these skills have been developed to the 

point that they are almost automatic, you will have little trouble 

transition to the FireFly.



The following observations come from several years experience getting the 

FireFly and myself ready to fly. Hopefully, these comments will be helpful 

but I am sure they are not all encompassing."



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Messing about in ground effect just above the stall is not something most 

instructors would >suggest." 




	


I agree, but few, if any instructor is used to flying a 500 lb gross weight 

aircraft with four inch wheels off of grass.  One other point.  There is 

nothing wrong with flying in ground effect if you keep tabs on your ASI.  

The problem comes when one is overcome by the illusion that ground and 

air speed are the same.



It is unfortunate the most hazardous part of flight, the transition to and 

from flight through ground effect is ignored by most instructors and yet, I 

feel, it is one of the most important to learn for very light aircraft.  I 

taught my self by flying a 4,000 foot runway at progressively lower speeds 

on a no wind day with the wheels no more than three feet above the ground.  

Then I repeated the same process in a light cross wind etc and finally 

progressed to gusty cross winds.  I would bump a wheel once in a while, but 

I improved.  With practice and no wind or flaperons, it is possible to 

fly/taxi the FireFly with the tail planted and main gear off the runway 

surface.



Fly Safe!



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

With practice and no wind or flaperons, it is possible to

 	  Quote: 	
		   fly/taxi the FireFly with the tail planted and main gear off the runway

 surface.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Jack:



I'm curious.  What is the purpose of this exercise?



How do you control pitch attitude with the tailwheel on the ground and the 

mains flying.



I'm not sure I understand why all this concern about ground effect.  Kolbs 

and other aircraft, fixed as well as rotary, require less power to fly in 

ground effect.  Our Kolbs fly so well, most of the time we don't know when 

we are in it or out of it.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

No, I do not recommend an inexperienced learner try this technique.  But 

anyone can learn this technique by using a long runway  etc..>>



No disagreement there Jack



Cheers



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

Jack:



I'm curious.  What is the purpose of this exercise?



How do you control pitch attitude with the tailwheel on the ground and the 

mains flying.



I'm not sure I understand why all this concern about ground effect.  Kolbs 

and other aircraft, fixed as well as rotary, require less power to fly in 

ground effect.  Our Kolbs fly so well, most of the time we don't know when 

we are in it or out of it.



john h

mkIII 	




Don't mean to butt in again, but I'm with John on this - my FSII and thereofre I should think all Kolbs, fly just fine in ground effect.



I'm still a little mystified about these claims that flying in ground-effect is dangerous and not something students should be exposed to, etc.



This is very basic training in fixed-wing airplanes, you're exposed to it pretty much right away when you start on landings and takeoffs. I got hours and hours of training in this as a student in both GA and light a/c from my various instructors.



I submit problems with flying in GE are training issues rather than problems with the plane. I did this literally all the time in my FS II when practicing landings, low approaches and takeoffs..... 



Someone help me out here .....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

If done correctly, there's nothing unsafe about a soft-field takeoff - you 

take the same precautions there as you do with any takeoff.

So I'm confused.....>>



Sorry that you are confused Lucien.



I just don`t see that dragging a plane off the ground before it is really 

ready to go is good technique.

If there are special circumstances , short field , soft field, standing 

water, tall obstructions close by then of course you would use techniques 

evolved to deal with that situation.  I have flown from a field which is 

steeply sloped. The only way to land  is to land uphill through a farm gate 

entrance and to take off downhill the opposite way..  Wind direction is not 

in the equation.

That is a technique to deal with a specific problem and is as safe as it can 

be made but presumably you would not advocate teaching it to a low hours 

pilot or contend that landing and take off down wind is a desirable thing in 

normal conditions..

All I am saying is that taking off while  holding the tail down CAN be done 

and in specific conditions MUST be done but it is not normal take off 

technique.

I read once that Gann, the pilot and author, was once by mistake overloaded 

with fuel. He just made it into the air but could only just stay airborne. 

His speed was OK so he cleaned up the plane, retracted flaps and wheels. 

Then to his horror he found he was headed straight for the Taj Mahal getting 

close enough that he could see  the fearstricken workmen scrambling off the 

scaffolding which surrounded it. Being unable to climb over it Gann dropped 

his flaps and achieved  that extra bit of lift we all experience when 

lowering flaps. This just bumped him high enough.

Now that was a technique  to suit a particular situation  but I presume that 

you wouldn`t teach it as normal.



Good. Now we can have a thread about wether it is possible to increase your 

height by dropping flaps.

Cheers



Pat

Cheers



Pat

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1490
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Don't mean to butt in again, but I'm with John on this - my  FSII and thereofre I should think all Kolbs, fly just fine in ground  effect.



I'm still a little mystified about these claims that flying in  ground-effect is dangerous and not something students should be exposed to,  etc.



This is very basic training in fixed-wing airplanes, you're exposed  to it pretty much right away when you start on landings and takeoffs. I got  hours and hours of training in this as a student in both GA and light a/c from  my various instructors.



I submit problems with flying in GE are training  issues rather than problems with the plane. I did this literally all the time in  my FS II when practicing landings, low approaches and takeoffs.....  



Someone help me out here  .....



LS



--------

LS

Titan II SS



Lucien, I think I can bring some clarity into Pat's problem with this  technique. You are basing your observations on how a Kolb acts and reacts, while  he is basing his on a Challenger.  Did you think the name was by  chance?  (The devil made me do it)

 Larry C

   [quote][b]

_________________
do not archive

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

At 09:46 AM 12/15/08 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 With practice and no wind or flaperons, it is possible to

> fly/taxi the FireFly with the tail planted and main gear off the runway

> surface.

 >

> Jack B. Hart FF004

Jack:

I'm curious.  What is the purpose of this exercise?

There is none, except that it can be done.

 	  Quote: 	

How do you control pitch attitude with the tailwheel on the ground and the 

mains flying.

Throttle

 	  Quote: 	

I'm not sure I understand why all this concern about ground effect.  Kolbs 

and other aircraft, fixed as well as rotary, require less power to fly in 

ground effect.  Our Kolbs fly so well, most of the time we don't know when 

we are in it or out of it.

John,

I do not believe there is much reason to worry about it in heavier and 

faster aircraft.  Think of risk management and cross wind speed versus stall 

speed.  Assume you are going to take off in a 20 mph cross wind.  Comparing 

wind to stall speed, this would give 44% for 45 mphi and 74% for 27 mphi 

stall speed.  Also comparing 1,000 lb to 500 lb gr wt, which is going to get 

blown around more on takeoff and which pilot is going to be the busiest and 

who is at greater risk?  

Control surface effectiveness is greater in ground effect and cross wind 

shear is less close to the ground, so it is better to stabilize and 

accelerate the aircraft at this point before moving on up into the full 

effects of the cross wind.

Before I changed out the ailerons, modified the control system and added 

VGs, I would not have attempted to takeoff in a cross wind of more than 5 mph.

This is the best I can do.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Assume you are going to take off in a 20 mph cross wind.  >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Jack:



Kolbs do not have enough yaw attitude authority to overcome a 20 mph cross 

wind.



Somewhere below 20 mph the Kolb will begin to weather vane.  Rudder becomes 

pretty much useless.



VGs or no VGs.



More than once I have had to find some place to land into the wind because 

the wind overpowered the rudder, at the risk of wetting my pants because my 

bladder was full.  Full bladder was reason for landing in the first place.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

circumstances when you would want to get into ground effect early:

1.  long draggy grass or brush which would otherwise prevent  

attaining flying speed.

2. rough plowed ground

3. wet snow.

done 'em all

BB



On 15, Dec 2008, at 11:27 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If done correctly, there's nothing unsafe about a soft-field  

 takeoff - you take the same precautions there as you do with any  

 takeoff.

 So I'm confused.....>>



 Sorry that you are confused Lucien.



 I just don`t see that dragging a plane off the ground before it is  

 really ready to go is good technique.

 If there are special circumstances , short field , soft field,  

 standing water, tall obstructions close by then of course you would  

 use techniques evolved to deal with that situation.  I have flown  

 from a field which is steeply sloped. The only way to land  is to  

 land uphill through a farm gate entrance and to take off downhill  

 the opposite way..  Wind direction is not in the equation.

 That is a technique to deal with a specific problem and is as safe  

 as it can be made but presumably you would not advocate teaching it  

 to a low hours pilot or contend that landing and take off down wind  

 is a desirable thing in normal conditions..

 All I am saying is that taking off while  holding the tail down CAN  

 be done and in specific conditions MUST be done but it is not  

 normal take off technique.

 I read once that Gann, the pilot and author, was once by mistake  

 overloaded with fuel. He just made it into the air but could only  

 just stay airborne. His speed was OK so he cleaned up the plane,  

 retracted flaps and wheels. Then to his horror he found he was  

 headed straight for the Taj Mahal getting close enough that he  

 could see  the fearstricken workmen scrambling off the scaffolding  

 which surrounded it. Being unable to climb over it Gann dropped his  

 flaps and achieved  that extra bit of lift we all experience when  

 lowering flaps. This just bumped him high enough.

 Now that was a technique  to suit a particular situation  but I  

 presume that you wouldn`t teach it as normal.



 Good. Now we can have a thread about wether it is possible to  

 increase your height by dropping flaps.

 Cheers



 Pat

 Cheers



 Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Sorry that you are confused Lucien.



I just don`t see that dragging a plane off the ground before it is really 

ready to go is good technique.



	




I've never heard of anything like that being taught. I've never encountered this in any training situation I've ever been in regardless of plane, instructor or situation.



No soft-field technique I've ever been taught involved anything close to that and I don't recall ever doing this personally.



What you described in your particular scenario - bouncing over at least 3 large dirt mounds, then clearing a hedge and then a road after a major, but untested, repair to the prop drive system - is not in any PTS for any rating I'm aware of.



But it's quite right to say that that's definitely not safe takeoff practice!



 	  Quote: 	
		  

All I am saying is that taking off while  holding the tail down CAN be done 

and in specific conditions MUST be done but it is not normal take off 

technique.

I read once that Gann, the pilot and author, was once by mistake overloaded 

with fuel.

	




Here again is another training item I'm not familiar with. Knowingly taking off over over gross is just plain verboten under all circumstances the way I was taught. Or at least, doing so puts you in test pilot territory and at your own risk.



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 He just made it into the air but could only just stay airborne. 

His speed was OK so he cleaned up the plane, retracted flaps and wheels. 

Then to his horror he found he was headed straight for the Taj Mahal getting 

close enough that he could see  the fearstricken workmen scrambling off the 

scaffolding which surrounded it. Being unable to climb over it Gann dropped 

his flaps and achieved  that extra bit of lift we all experience when 

lowering flaps. This just bumped him high enough.

Now that was a technique  to suit a particular situation  but I presume that 

you wouldn`t teach it as normal.

	




Actually, I wouldn't teach this technique of dodging buildings and people while over gross as normal or safe under _any_ circumstances at all, so yes, you're quite right.



Again, I'd be instructing some other method than flight as the alternative here, such as a vehicle for the pilot and a trailer for the plane.



You're right - you're definitely not talking about good training or safety here....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  lcottrell wrote: 	
		  

Lucien, I think I can bring some clarity into Pat's problem with this  technique. You are basing your observations on how a Kolb acts and reacts, while  he is basing his on a Challenger.  Did you think the name was by  chance?  (The devil made me do it)

 Larry C

	




I appreciate the attempt but this doesn't help me too much. Every plane I've flown so far flies just fine in ground effect, even the one or two trikes both single and double-surface. The Kolb is in large company in this regard....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

<<Knowingly taking off over over gross >>



Sorry Lucien, either we speak different languages or you don`t read  very 

carefully. I specifically said "loaded by mistake"  nothing at all about 

`knowingly taking off etc`

 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I remember of the story the refuelling crew were instructed to put 

in a specific amount of fuel but instead filled the tanks.
	


I am not going to get into the question of whether Gann should have checked 

the amount. It is just the story as I remember it and its years since I read 

it..



As for my `take off with an untested repair`. Replacing a faulty drive belt 

with a new one hardly calls for a major investigation. In any case that is 

entirely beside the point. The object of the story was to illustrate that in 

that instance there WAS a case for dragging the plane off the ground as 

quickly as possible as it was a small very rough field and a NORMAL take off 

run was impractical.



That encapsulates what I have said all along. You CAN take off with the tail 

on the ground but unless you need to what is the point?



I think this has been hammered to death. Let us just leave it. I shall 

continue to take off in what I consider a safe manner and no doubt you will 

do the same.



Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his initials 

are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one of his stories. 

Well worth reading.



Merry Christmas



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Sorry Lucien, either we speak different languages or you don`t read  very 

carefully. I specifically said "loaded by mistake"  nothing at all about 

`knowingly taking off etc`

	




Regardless of why, taking off over gross is a training issue and thus has nothing to do correct takeoff technique. Negligence of this type doesn't say anything about the technique used to get in the air, at that point you can't and shouldn't rely on the results you get.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

As for my `take off with an untested repair`. Replacing a faulty drive belt 

with a new one hardly calls for a major investigation. In any case that is 

entirely beside the point. The object of the story was to illustrate that in 

that instance there WAS a case for dragging the plane off the ground as 

quickly as possible as it was a small very rough field and a NORMAL take off 

run was impractical.

	




The way I see it, no takeoff at all, regardless of technique used, could have been the correct method to use in that situation. Dirt bars, bushes and roads directly in the path of the takeoff and clearly too close to clear safely is only a case for not attempting flight period and don't support the use of any takeoff method.

Trailering techniques, OTOH, could have been effectively taught in a situation like that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

That encapsulates what I have said all along. You CAN take off with the tail 

on the ground but unless you need to what is the point?



I think this has been hammered to death. Let us just leave it. I shall 

continue to take off in what I consider a safe manner and no doubt you will 

do the same.

	




Well, good luck to you,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:41 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <<Knowingly taking off over over gross >>

 Sorry Lucien, either we speak different languages or you don`t  

 read  very carefully. I specifically said "loaded by mistake"   

 nothing at all about `knowingly taking off etc`

> From what I remember of the story the refuelling crew were  

> instructed to put

 in a specific amount of fuel but instead filled the tanks.

 I am not going to get into the question of whether Gann should have  

 checked the amount. It is just the story as I remember it and its  

 years since I read it..

 As for my `take off with an untested repair`. Replacing a faulty  

 drive belt with a new one hardly calls for a major investigation.  

 In any case that is entirely beside the point. The object of the  

 story was to illustrate that in that instance there WAS a case for  

 dragging the plane off the ground as quickly as possible as it was  

 a small very rough field and a NORMAL take off run was impractical.

 That encapsulates what I have said all along. You CAN take off with  

 the tail on the ground but unless you need to what is the point?

 I think this has been hammered to death. Let us just leave it. I  

 shall continue to take off in what I consider a safe manner and no  

 doubt you will do the same.

 Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his  

 initials are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one  

 of his stories. Well worth reading.

 Merry Christmas

 Pat

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Pat:

It is Earnest Kellogg Gann...



Fate is the Hunter, Island in the Sky, Band of Brothers, In The Company of 

Eagles, The High and the Mighty,

etc.



Fate is the Hunter is widely regarded as probably the finest aviation book 

ever written...



Regards,

beauford

FF-076

Brandon, FL

Do Not Archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his

 initials are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one

 of his stories. Well worth reading.



 Merry Christmas



 Pat

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Agreed.  If you haven't read it, do it. So real you will feel you are  

there.

BB

do not archive



On 16, Dec 2008, at 1:25 PM, beauford T wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <beauford173(at)verizon.net>



 Pat:

 It is Earnest Kellogg Gann...



 Fate is the Hunter, Island in the Sky, Band of Brothers, In The  

 Company of

 Eagles, The High and the Mighty,

 etc.



 Fate is the Hunter is widely regarded as probably the finest  

 aviation book

 ever written...



 Regards,

 beauford

 FF-076

 Brandon, FL

 Do Not Archive



> 



> Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his

> initials are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one

> of his stories. Well worth reading.

>

> Merry Christmas

>

> Pat

>

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

At 01:09 PM 12/15/08 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Assume you are going to take off in a 20 mph cross wind.  >

> Jack B. Hart FF004

Jack:



Kolbs do not have enough yaw attitude authority to overcome a 20 mph cross 

wind.




	


John,



On take off you do not need all that much yaw authority.  If you move the 

stick into the wind and back to keep the up wind main wheel and the tail 

wheel planted until it leaves the ground, there is no need for a rudder.  

After it leaves the ground, you can let it weather vane into the wind, level 

the wings and crab into the wind on climb out.



Landing is different.  You can hold in as much side slip as the rudder will 

permit.  If the wind blows you off, then you have to decide whether to use a 

combination of side alip and a crab to get to the runway, and at the last 

second lower the up wind wing and plant the up wind wheel.  In this case, I 

land into the wind.  The landing roll is very short.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

> On take off you do not need all that much yaw authority.

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Jack:



You have written of flying in 25 mph cross winds in the past.



I'd like to watch you demonstrate those maneuvers for me, as soon as I 

finish making double tie downs on my mkIII.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Pat, List

I'm sure you're talking about Ernest K. Gann, one of the early  

airline pilots and an accomplished sailor. And writer! -- a whole  

bunch of great books;



ISLAND IN  THE SKY

THE HIGH AND THE MIGHTY

FATE IS THE HUNTER

BAND OF BROTHERS

A HOSTAGE TO FORTUNE (this is my favorite, and I think the Taj  

incident is in  here)

BLACK WATCH ( SR-71 & others)

SOLDIER OF FORTUNE

MASADA



Many of these were made into films, & all are good reading. I've  

talked to him but to my regret, never met him .

Russ Kinne

do not archive

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Beauford, I agree wholeheartedly on "FATE IS THE HUNTER" A great story,well written and a real heart thumper if you fly or just dream of flying. Thanks for reminding me !  Chris

 

   From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:49:26 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off



--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>



Agreed.  If you haven't read it, do it. So real you will feel you are  

there.

BB

do not archive



On 16, Dec 2008, at 1:25 PM, beauford T wrote:



[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "beauford T"  

 <beauford173(at)verizon.net (beauford173(at)verizon.net)>



 Pat:

 It is Earnest Kellogg  Gann...



 Fate is the Hunter, Island in the Sky, Band of Brothers, In The  

 Company of

 Eagles, The High and the Mighty,

 etc.



 Fate is the Hunter is widely regarded as probably the finest  

 aviation book

 ever written...



 Regards,

 beauford

 FF-076

 Brandon, FL

 Do Not Archive



> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>



> Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his

> initials are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one

> of his stories. Well worth reading.

>

> Merry Christmas

>

>           [quote][b]

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