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Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Tom and Paul,

   Thanks for your input on checking the rear spar pivot. I will proceed with the checks you suggested. I checked again yesterday with a super bright light and everything appears in order but will see if I have any movement

                                                    Dick Maddux

                                                    Pensacola,Fl



New year...new news.  Be the first to know what is making headlines.

  [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Dick, checking the spar pivot is a good plan, but I'd suggest that if you  want to be absolutely sure, remove the wings and (with a magnifying glass)  have a very close look at the spars themselves, mainly at the mounting points  and doublers.  If the doubler rivets are tight, glue is still  intact with no sign of cracking, and the holes are still round, then you're  probably good to go.  Being 4130 steel, I believe that the fuselage pivot  points are much stronger than the spars and it seems to me that if anything  would give, it would be the spars themselves.  

 At the very least, replace the rear spar pivot bolts.

 Just my .02.

  

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an  argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph  Joubert

  

 ---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

AS we all know, the kitfox was a copy of the avid.  It has been asked if the original designers were thinking about towing etc. when it was designed, and I do believe it was implied that they were to stupid (or lacked the Grey matter) to have done so....



Please read the last sentence of the brochure.

1st_Brochure_&_Info_Packet_-_Page_3.JPG

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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Just to be fair, I better post the rest of the story...

Avid Letter.pdf

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as

consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more

about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure with

high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was a

consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented

anywhere?



Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the statement

"strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory

supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits, but

it would be nice to have any confirmation.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Bob,  I think the documentation you are looking for is the simple fact that 

since 1982 there has been no report (read documantation) of an inflight 

structural failure on any Avid or Kitfox aircraft.  This doesn't meant that 

one won't crop up at some time in the future.  But I always think of my 

friend that is considering buying an ultralight type aircraft that has a 

long history of the lift strut attachment failing at a fairly predictable 

interval.  This item has been tagged by pilots of this airplane for 

bimiannual raplacement.   I asked him if this was a problem to him - his 

answer, No.



Lowell

---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as

consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more

about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure with

high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was a

consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented

anywhere?



Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the statement

"strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory

supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits, but

it would be nice to have any confirmation.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



-- 	




I wonder if it is possible that someone may have eaten alot of paint chips as a child.... who knows....  I guess that just as above has shown, thinking can get us all into trouble..



The full file is too large to post (12.8 MB) so I cut out the page for transport.  Read the last sentence on transport...

AvidFlyerBrochure1990 7.pdf

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

So do you think your friend's "no" answer meant "no I don't mind replacing

the part(s) every 2 years to be safe, glad I know about it" or "no I don't

believe that's a problem and I'm gonna buy it and fly it without ever

bothering to fix it"?



It seems we have both opinions on this list as regards the stresses of

trailering, but no solid "replace this weak point biannually if you trailer"

good advice.



Another reason I am searching for a definition of that "high fatigue life"

statement is that I am considering restoring a 1943 vintage L2 Grasshopper,

which to those who know is the military version of the original Taylorcraft

Cub. Not to get off topic on a Kitfox forum but the L2 has a very similar

fabric covered metal tube fuselage and I can't help but think that in 1943

they didn't build it using molybdenum tubing and TIG welding. So I am

thinking (there I go again!) that the Avid "higher fatigue life" is as

compared to something like an old Cub, and what exactly, or even

approximately, is the life in hours-flown of either, or any tube-framed

aircraft?



Old type-certified aircraft don't fall out of the sky either, but I've seen

lots in museums labelled "past their serviceable life" or completely

rebuilt. But we will just keep merrily flying our Kitfoxes because we don't

know 'bout stuff like that... :-S



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

"We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it

long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when the

wings are folded"



<well-intentioned sarcasm>

Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing

supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the

factory-supplied towbar.

So no problems then!

</sarcasm>



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  "We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it

long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when the

wings are folded"



<well>

Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing

supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the

factory-supplied towbar.

So no problems then!

</sarcasm>



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



-- 	




what data did you use to determine that >10 miles is considered "long distance", or is that a brown and smelly number?  I have the full file from the manufacture and did not see a hard number they considered a "long distance".  It seems the most info to be had in that statement was to "make sure you have the wing braces installed when the wings are folded".  This is the brace that slips into the forward spar and pins in at the strut attachment on the fuse.



In respect to you other post, it is safe to assume that the welds were made using oxy acetylene and mild steel tubing.  Atleast, the early pipers were made this way.  I would venture to say that a quick web search would back this up as well as asking anyone of the number of people who have restored one, or asking an A&P with Grey, thinning hair.



The service life you mentioned is more determined by how the AC was used not really how many years old it is.  If it was flown off grass strips or paved runways and taken to shows every year and kept in a hangar and has 5000 hrs on it, I would bet it is better shape and has less fatigue than a cub that was built in '78 that has been flown in the Alaskan bush by a sheep or bear guide yet it only has 2800 hrs on it.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

That depends on if you call the Kitfox Owner's Manual "brown and

smelly"(huh?) Leonard. From the manual, posted at

http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf, page 5 - "The airplane should not

be towed on its own gear for long distances (more than 10 miles)."



Thanks for your ideas regarding the question of service life of a

fabric-and-tube aircraft, such as the Kitfox and the Taylorcraft. As I said

when the designer of the Avid stated "higher fatigue life" I am guessing he

meant higher than old Cubs and that sort of design, which I am also guessing

was a starting point for the design of the Avid and eventually the Kitfox.

I'll do some research on the service lifetime of that type of aircraft later

tonight, and/or leave the question open to anyone else on the list who may

have some real numbers or know where to get them.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

gary-n-dorothy(at)tctwest
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

This picture is from the avid  yahoo list and shows how   one person installed transport braces.

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/photos/album/1859297514/pic/1131734089/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

  

 note that there are 2 braces per wing.   It looks like a  good way to do it.  

  

 [quote]   ---

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

FWIW, TCSD for the Taylorcraft L-2 can be found at:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgMakeModel.nsf/

0/A9F4EAFB56CCBA638525673E00624DE4/$FILE/a-699.pdf 



John Hart

KF IV, NSI Subaru

Wilburton, OK



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Thanks for the link John, I'll print that out for the next time I give that

L2 a good looking over. It last flew in 1995 and has quite a bit of fabric

damage, so I don't think it's going anywhere too soon.



Bob

Do not archive



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

You're right Leonard, the service life of a commercial aircraft is limited

to a number of take-off and landing "cycles" rather than hours flown,

specifically because of the predicted occurrence of fatigue failure after a

certain number of "cycles", which is where all the stress occurs.



However, I also know from working at a flight data recorder analysis company

for a while that *any* non-flight related stress on a commercial airliner

requires mandatory inspection for stress fractures. Tail scrapes, bumping

into or being bumped by something, hard landings, departure from a taxiway

or runway, all these things and more require an inspection before the

aircraft can be put back in commercial service.



My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of

take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the engine

logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks don't

record those details?



bob



--

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  You're right Leonard, the service life of a commercial aircraft is limited

to a number of take-off and landing "cycles" rather than hours flown,

specifically because of the predicted occurrence of fatigue failure after a

certain number of "cycles", which is where all the stress occurs.



However, I also know from working at a flight data recorder analysis company

for a while that *any* non-flight related stress on a commercial airliner

requires mandatory inspection for stress fractures. Tail scrapes, bumping

into or being bumped by something, hard landings, departure from a taxiway

or runway, all these things and more require an inspection before the

aircraft can be put back in commercial service.



My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of

take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the engine

logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks don't

record those details?



bob



-- 	




I was getting more at how the aircraft is used, not necessarily commercial or not.  



To keep it relevant, if you were looking at buying a used Kitfox (as an example), you would probably be better off buying one from a guy that has only flown it on sunny days, it has had a set of wheel pants on it since day one (and they are not cracked) and there is not one spec of dirt on it, as opposed to buying one that I have flown lol... Mine has big tires and sees most of its action on unimproved strips, getting abused (or should I say used to the full potential) as they were originally designed to be used.  I also trailer mine every flight so I can keep it in a nice warm garage instead of out in the -34 crap we have had sitting on top of us for the last 3 weeks.

dwight purdy

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

Was just thing about the post a year ago of how you could take the wing spar 

bolts out in flight and they would not go anywhere. Compression forces. In 

transit the forces are just the opposite especially if the tail is left 

down.



    Dwight Purdy

    model II

---

_________________
dwight
model II

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

So never buy a Kitfox from Leonard Perry... got it 



Mine had been through 5 owners already when I got it, and I was not a

wizened aircraft buyer at the time (an owner-virgin one might say). Other

than a leaky wing tank, leaky tyre (Brit for "tire"), and at least one owner

who thought electrical tape was the only way to repair anything on an

airplane... I think I got lucky and got myself a really perfect aeroplane

(Brit for "airplane"), for my purposes at least. 



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

I record all the landings....assuming I made a take-off to get to  

that point...and hours and tenths, plus where I went, amount of fuel  

installed in plane and miles flown.

If something eventful happens, I note that too...like taking off up  

through fog (known thickness) during one brain fart incident:  Note  

to self: "Don't ever do this again."

I since then bought an artificial horizon, so I may not have learned  

my lesson. : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Jan 11, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>




	


 	  Quote: 	
		   My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the  

 number of

 take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and  

 the engine

 logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you  

 yanks don't

 record those details?



 bob

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox

For what it's worth and from someone who went through it last year,  I would 

suggest that all Log Book entries be made with the thought of just who you 

would want to read them.  These are legal documents and if there is ever an 

incident or accident, these will be surrendered to the FAA for their 

inpection - no warrant required.



In my personal case, all engine and airframe info was logged in the book. 

Personal flight data was logged in a trip form I made up (four to a page, 

both sides - eight days from the first take off of the day wherever that 

was) and kept in a binder.  Periodically, all pertinent hours, and landings 

were transferred to my pilot's log in bulk form.  When the FAA came calling, 

I gave him the two log books and everyone was satisfied.  I still have all 

the personal data,  T/Os and landings, fuel, landing sites, persons on 

board, observation notes and stuff in a very personal file.  I don't mean to 

imply that I flew without regard to the regs, but I just think some of the 

observarions and comments were logged for my benefit alone.



Lowell



---

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