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Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

| P.S. He still might not believe so just put them on the left wing 

only! 



Will it spin better with VGs on top of left wing, and bottom of right 

wing?



Did we ever get a comprehensive report of the experimentation Beauford 

T was doing with VGs on the bottom of his wings and top of his helmet?



Got my silencers welded up and ready to reinstall on the MKIII.  Was 

going to get over and get it done this afternoon, but a gut bug 

persuaded me to stay close to the house.  Tomorrow is rain.  Soon, I 

hope to get the old gal flying again to see if I can still fly.



Take care,



john h



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ultrastarrick(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

nice artical on vgs

   

  http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182564-1.html



Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi(at)supernet.com> wrote:

  



John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have never flown with VG's on a Kolb or any other aircraft, that I 

 know of. So.....I can only speak from experience without them. 


	


Any volunteers out there to sneak out to Hauck's Holler some night and 

stick a set of VG's on Mr. Hauck's Kolb so that he can enhance his 

experience.  ~ Earl



P.S. He still might not believe so just put them on the left wing only! 





		

---------------------------------

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  John,



Question about your lower approach speed:

Normal approach speed on final is (according to most authorities) 1.3 x Vs. If you were stalling at 40 IAS was your final speed about 52 IAS before and now 39 mph (1.3x30)? If so then to land three point I guess you have to speed up 1 mph to land .



Thom in Buffalo 	




Thom, 

I used to approach at 50. How the plane acts just over the runway at speeds below 40 is something I'll have to learn. I'm sure that the tail will touch first (it did before). Will the mains hit hard if I get too sow. I doubt it but I don't know yet. If my first three landing are an indication, I going to like it.

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

I  can now shoot approaches solo in the MKIII at 45 and do pretty good. 

Below that and it gets iffy.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



do not archive



John Jung wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

   

 <snip>

 I used to approach at 50. How the plane acts just over the runway at speeds below 40 is something I'll have to learn. I'm sure that the tail will touch first (it did before). Will the mains hit hard if I get too sow. I doubt it but I don't know yet. If my first three landing are an indication, I going to like it.



 --------

 John Jung

 Firestar II N6163J

 Surprise, AZ





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22571#22571

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

My Landshorter VG's are at 7 inches from the leading edge measured along the chord line of my Firestar 2 wing.  The interval is from the Landshorter templates.  My wing has a smooth leading edge with no sag between ribs, so I could put them at any interval.



Stall is at 30 mph, and is abrupt, much like that of a sailplane laminar wing.  Handling is rock solid right up to the stall, and then it quits with a pronounced drop of the nose.  I find that the aircraft flys better in ground effect during the landing flare, and doesn't quit flying as suddenly as it did before VG's.  I do notice that it takes a little more power to hold cruise speed.  Overall, I think they are a great positive.



John's flight tests seem to indicate that the stall charactoristics are more mellow with the VG's at 8 inches.  If I were starting from scratch, I'd use 8 inches from the LE.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

| Stall is at 30 mph, and is abrupt, much like that of a sailplane 

laminar wing.  Handling is rock solid right up to the stall, and then 

it quits with a pronounced drop of the nose.  I find that the aircraft 

flys better in ground effect during the landing flare, and doesn't 

quit flying as suddenly as it did before VG's.   | --------

| Dave Bigelow



The para above, to me, is contradictory.  You say the stall is at 30 

mph and abrupt.  However, during landing, "doesn't quit flying as 

suddenly as it did before VG's."



I'm probably reading it wrong.  If so, you can straighten me out, 

please.



Glad it flies better in ground effect.  Mine does too.



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

 	  Dave Bigelow wrote: 	
		  My Landshorter VG's are at 7 inches from the leading edge measured along the chord line of my Firestar 2 wing.  The interval is from the Landshorter templates.  My wing has a smooth leading edge with no sag between ribs, so I could put them at any interval. 	




Dave and Group,



This is interesting because I have a smooth wing too. What interval did you choose?  Could the 1 inch change in placement cause that much difference? Or are we describing the same thing differently? The VG's do give my stall a sharper feel but much less nose drop and much less time before the stall stops. At least that is the impression that I got. At 4,500 rpm, I could do a stall every 5 to 10 seconds, always between 29.5 and 30 mph, and I did not notice a change in my vertical air speed on the EIS, or an altitude loss. Maybe, I not pulling into the stall fast enough, but I think that I was simulating a landing stall. Do we have any former test pilots to help with how stall testing should be done or described?

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

John Jung,

The interval between the two VG's in a pair is 2.75 inches, and between pairs is 3.00 inches.  I think the one inch distance from the LE may make a pretty big difference in the stall.  Power off or on with a pitch attitude of level flight (bleeding airspeed attempting to hold a constant altitude to the break), the nose drops at least 20 degrees.  If you have any rudder or a bank at the stall, the wing will drop in the direction of bank or rudder input.  I get the feeling you could spin it, but so far have not been tempted to test that aspect of Firestar flight.



John H,

The Firestar gear limits the angle of attack of the wing in a three point landing.  Most landings seem to touch down near 35, although I have made a few tailwheel first landings a bit slower.  I think ground effect may temper the stall a bit close to the ground.  I find that I'm doing a lot less stick stirring doing landing, as the response is quicker and less mushy.  I'm sure you could get in trouble with a flare six feet (or more) in the air.  Instead mushing into the ground in a level attitude, I think the nose would drop.  My opinion is that an experienced pilot would have no trouble with the VG's, but a pilot new to Kolbs should probably get some time with the standard wing before adding VG's.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

 	  Dave Bigelow wrote: 	
		  John Jung,

The interval between the two VG's in a pair is 2.75 inches, and between pairs is 3.00 inches. 	




Dave, 



We have a similar wing and spacing. From what I have read about VG's, the 1 inch difference from the LE should not cause our difference.Where is your CG? Are you near 37% like I am? Maybe that could explain the difference in stall charactoristics.



do not archive

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

John J,



My CG is pretty close to the aft limit.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

 	  Dave Bigelow wrote: 	
		  

I'm sure you could get in trouble with a flare six feet (or more) in the air.  Instead mushing into the ground in a level attitude, I think the nose would drop.  My opinion is that an experienced pilot would have no trouble with the VG's, but a pilot new to Kolbs should probably get some time with the standard wing before adding VG's. 	




Dave and I are both flying Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's, LandShorter VGs and only on inch difference in placement, yet we have very different descriptions of the change in flight/stall charactoristics. About the only thing we agree on is that we like the plane better than without VGs. This problem of inconsistancy of described results is one of the reasons that it took me so many years to try VGs. I will continue to test them and do my best to report the results. 



do not archive

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's,>>



Hi John,



if that CG is very far aft I think I would be more worried about getting 

that right that with adding VG`s, however desirable they they are.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

All,



It's no mystery to me why there are such varied results, I don't think that 

any two people have installed the Land Shorter VGs in the same location on 

their wings and none at the recommended distances.



Harrison Designs (in person phone conversation) recommends that the VGs be 

placed at 10% of the wing chord on a Firestar II, that's 6.2 inches aft of 

the leading edge and spaced at 3 inches apart with the pairs centered in 

each valley.



In comparing results from installing something as significant as VGs on an 

aircraft wing  an inch difference may as well be a mile.



You can steer the whole damned  airplane just by sticking your arm out of 

the cockpit.



It's apples and oranges guys.



CM



Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave and I are both flying Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's, 

 LandShorter VGs and only on inch difference in placement, yet we have very 

 different descriptions of the change in flight/stall charactoristics. 

 About the only thing we agree on is that we like the plane better than 

 without VGs. This problem of inconsistancy of described results is one of 

 the reasons that it took me so many years to try VGs. I will continue to 

 test them and do my best to report the results.



 do not archive



 --------

 John Jung

 Firestar II N6163J

 Surprise, AZ





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23734#23734

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

 	  John Jung wrote: 	
		  

Dave and I are both flying Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's, LandShorter VGs and only on inch difference in placement, yet we have very different descriptions of the change in flight/stall charactoristics. About the only thing we agree on is that we like the plane better than without VGs. This problem of inconsistancy of described results is one of the reasons that it took me so many years to try VGs. I will continue to test them and do my best to report the results. 



	




I have a bag of LandShorter VG's and the same questions about the best place on the wing to put them.   I am sure that they will be an improvement even if I dont get them in the perfect spot the first time.   



Eventually we could find the optimum spot for the Kolb wing if we all do some testing, and post exactly where we put the VG's and post our results.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

I am sure that they will be an improvement even if I dont get them in 

the perfect spot the first time.

|

| Eventually we could find the optimum spot for the Kolb wing if we 

all do some testing, and post exactly where we put the VG's and post 

our results.

|

| Michael A. Bigelow

If I were to decide to use VG's on my MKIII I would start 

experimentation with the VG's placed as suggested by the VG 

manufacturer.  Tests would proceed from this base.  When I was 

satisfied I could not find a better place to install them permanently, 

that I had them placed for optimum performance, then I'd stick'em. 

Even then, I may stick'em semi-permanent in case I wanted to further 

experimentation.



Will the placement of Joe Blow's VG's on his Kolb work exactly the 

same way on my Kolb???  Have no idea.  Think I mentioned in a previous 

post, "Flight testing a Kolb is not an exacting science, especially 

when the test pilots are from the "Kolb Gang".  



While I am suggesting, might add:  "Learn to fly the Kolb well, 

especially prior to making aerodynamic changes."  You may find out you 

don't need them, or you may find out you do.



For what it is worth.



john h

MKIII       2,448.2 hrs

912ULS  1,102.3 hrs

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

I have a bag of LandShorter VG's and the same questions about the best place 

on the wing to put them.>>



Hi there,



how about being really daring and put them exactly where the manufacturers 

says you should.  Or does that offend some basic ethic of the Experimental 

category?



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

I totally agree, Joa was very specific about where to place the VGs and how 

to space them on the Firestar II when I spoke to him on the phone.



But then again what does he know??? (snip)



CM



do not archive

---

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

Group,



I did a dozen landings today to learn more about how my Firestar II handles different than before the VGs. Conditions were as thermally and gusty as I have experienced in Arizona. Wind was about 15 mph, mostly down the 1000 ft dirt runway, with a small crosswind component.  My first landing was at 4350 rpm, nose high, tail dragging at 30 mph. The plane dropped from there, hit harder than I like but no bent gear. After that, I kept the rpms at 3,600 down to full idle. Average touch down speed was 34 mph, almost always 33 to 35 mph, all tail first, soft landings. Even though conditions were bad, it was easy to land the plane without hitting hard. In the past, I had to get the mains close to the runway before I slowed to 40, because at 40 mph it just dropped. 



On the way back to the airport, I tried to duplicate the nose drop stall that Dave reported. I pulled the stick back further so the plane would slow quicker. This time it stalled at 28 and the nose did drop below level, like Dave described. I can't really compare that with before the VGs, because I never pulled my Firestar into a stall that quickly before. And I don't see it happening by accident. 



In summary, I much prefer my Firestar with the Landshorter VGs. I have flown Firestars for the past 9 years, and I have some time in a Mark II and a Mark III. These Landshorter VGs make my plane easier to land then any non-VG Kolb I have flown. Granted, if I had flaps, I might never had tried them.

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

John,



Joa (from Land Shorter) tells me that if you install the VGs on the 

underside of the Horizontal Stabilizer, just ahead of the hinge line at 1.5 

inch spacing that the tail will not drag low as you have described, rather 

it will stay in normal attitude and do a soft "mush" right at touch down. He 

said that the reason for this is that because of the VGs, the Wing wants to 

keep flying but the tail wants to stall first, adding the VGs aft will 

balance the two flying surfaces and eliminate this tendency.



I installed the VGs on my wing as per Joa's instructions and will add them 

to the HZ stab. as per his instructions as well.



Joa has the experience of ALL those that have installed Land Shorter Vgs on 

their aircraft regardless of type.



The only thing better than a good set of instructions is a conversation with 

the guy that wrote them.



CM



Do not archive

---

Steven Green

Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 118

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II

If the horizonal stabilizer stalls the tail would go up, not down, unless

you are flying a canard wing with the stab. up front.



Steven

---

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Steven Green

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