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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

The fact that the rivets have pulled through the wood seems to me to  

call for a load-spreading modification.....say something like a  

(humor me) MK1000 anchor nut for instance. Sorry, I've been watching  

"House" on the tube, and I'm picking up his grating personality. : )

Seriously though, James, that is good news that you found that the  

builder followed some directions. If you are going the "hardware  

store" option for replacement hardware, you might consider "T-nuts" I  

believe they are called...nuts that are stamped metal with a large  

washer head with little spikes to prevent rotation in the wood of the  

butt rib capstrip. This would allow for easier removal in case things  

don't work out with the old windshield/skylight. Not as good in my  

opinion as the anchor nuts, because the anchor nuts have the self- 

locking feature which the T-nuts do not...could use loctite with the  

T-nuts, I suppose. I'd like to use an aircraft fastener or something  

a bit more elegant than the T-nuts myself.



Remember too, that the wood in this area has been compromised by the  

wood fibers being stretched and torn by the rivets being torn through  

the wood, so I'd certainly go beyond just fixing the problem,  

whatever that entails.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 17, 2009, at 8:56 PM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 Well here is an update that is pretty good news, well at least I  

 now know the builder was not a complete moron.  It seems the green  

 house lexan was in fact installed into the butt ribs, however the  

 rivets were simple secured into the wood and they seemed to work  

 their way out.  I plan to use washers for backing if I use rivets  

 to secure the new lexan.  I am considering using screws instead.  I  

 noticed that the manual calls for aluminum rivets for this  

 assembly, I assume this means that AN hardware would not be  

 necessary and it would be no issue to just use some nice SS hardware.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of instruction and  climbing (I solo tomorrow)





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30781#230781

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I would not use SS rivits C because they will pull up a lot tighter than aluminum rivits and I would worry that it would mess with the expantion of the lexan leading to cracking.  I did use 1/8" washers on the bottom of the aluminum rivits (that I bought from Fastenall) so they wouldn't pull through the butt rib.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Jim Chuk  Avid MK IV  Mn

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: New issue C turtle deck security

 From: james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil

 Date: Tue C 17 Feb 2009 17:56:57 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 Well here is an update that is pretty good news C well at least I now know the builder was not a complete moron. It seems the green house lexan was in fact installed into the butt ribs C however the rivets were simple secured into the wood and they seemed to work their way out. I plan to use washers for backing if I use rivets to secure the new lexan. I am considering using screws instead. I noticed that the manual calls for aluminum rivets for this assembly C I assume this means that AN hardware would not be necessary and it would be no issue to just use some nice SS hardware.

 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230781#230781

&gt=======================

&g=======

[quote] 

Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.  See how it works.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

You're absolutely right, Jim, and that's one of the reasons that I  

went to machine screws....better control of the tightness of the  

fasteners. Even if you used aluminum pop rivets with aluminum  

mandrels, you have no control of the tightness after the mandrel breaks.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 18, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I would not use SS rivits, because they will pull up a lot tighter  

 than aluminum rivits and I would worry that it would mess with the  

 expantion of the lexan leading to cracking.  I did use 1/8" washers  

 on the bottom of the aluminum rivits (that I bought from Fastenall)  

 so they wouldn't pull through the butt rib.  Just my 2 cents  

 worth.  Jim Chuk  Avid MK IV  Mn

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

At 05:56 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I noticed that the manual calls for aluminum rivets for this 

assembly, I assume this means that AN hardware would not be 

necessary and it would be no issue to just use some nice SS hardware.


	


James,

         I too would worry about restraining the expansion of the 

skylight excessively with SS rivets. However I use SS screws here, as 

you suggest, and they're fine since the loads are negligible. (Indeed 

I wonder if your rivets loosened under the thermal expansion load 

instead of the flight loads.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Exactly.  Either washers or the aluminum strip as  called for in the manual.

  

 do not archive

 Deke

  

 [quote]   Subject: RE: Re: New issue,    turtle deck security

   



I would not use SS rivits, because they will pull up a lot    tighter than aluminum rivits and I would worry that it would mess with the    expantion of the lexan leading to cracking.  I did use 1/8" washers on    the bottom of the aluminum rivits (that I bought from Fastenall) so they    wouldn't pull through the butt rib.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Jim    Chuk  Avid MK IV  Mn



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: New    issue, turtle deck security

 From: james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil

    Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:56:57 -0800

 To:    kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted    by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 

 Well    here is an update that is pretty good news, well at least I now know the    builder was not a complete moron. It seems the green house lexan was in fact    installed into the butt ribs, however the rivets were simple secured into the    wood and they seemed to work their way out. I plan to use washers for backing    if I use rivets to secure the new lexan. I am considering using screws    instead. I noticed that the manual calls for aluminum rivets for this    assembly, I assume this means that AN hardware would not be necessary and it    would be no issue to just use some nice SS hardware.

 

    --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of    instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)

 

 

 

    

 Read this topic online here:

 

    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230781#230781

 

    

 

 

 

 

    

=======================

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 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

    


	


      Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. See how it works.  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Correctly put, Lynn,  and more important to those of you who use the LP 

acrylic products.  The folks at LP say to drill the holes 50 percent larger 

than the fastener then after applying a thin foam 1/2" wide insulating seal, 

use truss head screws and nuts (or nutplates), tighten down the screw until 

it just begins to distort the acrylic, then stop.  This can be easily done 

by using reflected light.  At this point the screw is not tight and can be 

very easily turned in it's place.   I personally used #6 screws and nylock 

nuts and have had no problems since 2000.  One of the advantages to using 

machine screws rather than rivets is that it can later be adjusted.

I would also caution against using rivets as you can't control the tension, 

something that is very important in avoiding cracking later on.  If you have 

to use rivets, get the softest ones you can.  Don't use stainless.  They're 

way too strong and your windshield probably won't last a year before it 

begins to crack.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

When I referenced SS hardware I was speaking specifically of the machine screws and nuts and was not considering SS rivets.  But I would not have thought about those issues, so thanks.  I am trying to figure out the best way to use machine screws without taking three steps backward.  I would have to remove fabric around the butt ribs in order to secure anything but I would like to know it is a one handed operation to remove and replace screws.  I would also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to figure out a way to secure the bolts to that strip.  Perhaps I could secure some regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the assembly.  



Still thinking on it.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I would just drill out the existing rivets, and place an anchor nut  

in the same location, fastened with solid, flat-head rivets. Once  

this job is done, it's a one-handed job to use machine screws forever  

after. Epoxy might give out later on, and if you had to remove screws  

then, they would just rotate on you, unless you got them close to the  

rib itself, then they might hold, but fall off when the screw was  

removed. I didn't realize that the area was covered in fabric  

already. I think you'd be better off biting the bullet and doing it  

right, re-covering, and lay this problem to rest. Heck, you wouldn't  

have to recover before you flew again, would you? I'm talking about  

just removing the fabric around the butt rib...hey, why not just  

slice the fabric, lay it back and tape over the area when the job is  

done, go fly, and when the mood hits you, re-do the fabric in that area.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying



On Feb 18, 2009, at 2:10 PM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 When I referenced SS hardware I was speaking specifically of the  

 machine screws and nuts and was not considering SS rivets.  But I  

 would not have thought about those issues, so thanks.  I am trying  

 to figure out the best way to use machine screws without taking  

 three steps backward.  I would have to remove fabric around the  

 butt ribs in order to secure anything but I would like to know it  

 is a one handed operation to remove and replace screws.  I would  

 also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to figure out a  

 way to secure the bolts to that strip.  Perhaps I could secure some  

 regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the assembly.



 Still thinking on it.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of instruction and  climbing (I solo tomorrow)





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30860#230860

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Absolutely right, Deke, and having installed an LP Aeroplastics  

windshield/skylight, I can say that that is just what their  

instructions call for, and what I did. Heck, this is good info even  

if the builder doesn't have the LP A  components. If not explained  

earlier, the reason for the oversize holes is to allow for thermal  

expansion.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:27 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 Correctly put, Lynn,  and more important to those of you who use  

 the LP acrylic products.  The folks at LP say to drill the holes 50  

 percent larger than the fastener then after applying a thin foam  

 1/2" wide insulating seal, use truss head screws and nuts (or  

 nutplates), tighten down the screw until it just begins to distort  

 the acrylic, then stop.  This can be easily done by using reflected  

 light.  At this point the screw is not tight and can be very easily  

 turned in it's place.   I personally used #6 screws and nylock nuts  

 and have had no problems since 2000.  One of the advantages to  

 using machine screws rather than rivets is that it can later be  

 adjusted.

 I would also caution against using rivets as you can't control the  

 tension, something that is very important in avoiding cracking  

 later on.  If you have to use rivets, get the softest ones you  

 can.  Don't use stainless.  They're way too strong and your  

 windshield probably won't last a year before it begins to crack.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Deke Morisse

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

vadert(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

James

  6nbsp;

  6nbsp; 6nbsp; When rebuilding my Kitfox 6nbsp; I decided to fold a 1 1/2 2 2 strip of aluminum in a right angle C 3/4 2 each side E I notched 6nbsp;one half of the aluminum strip continuously along it 7s length so that it would bend to fit the curve of the capstrip and riveted it to the but rib to prevent the capstrip from lifting E 6nbsp; When reinstalling the windshield I drilled out for the attachment holes through the capstrip and aluminum angle and used 10-32 or 10-28 rivnuts along the capstrips and rear strip of the skylight E 6nbsp; This makes it a one handed operation to remove or replace the machine screws E 6nbsp;

  6nbsp; I think that the capstrips are susceptible to pulling away from the butt ribs mostly due to the fact that the tightening curve at the front of the butt ribs makes the tension of bending the windshield over the curve want to pull up at that point E 6nbsp; I 7m sure that the lift generated by the airflow adds to the upward force E

  6nbsp;

 Tim Vader

  6nbsp;

 Kitfox IV

 Great Plains VW

 Calgary C Alberta



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

At 11:10 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to 

figure out a way to secure the bolts to that strip.  Perhaps I could 

secure some regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the assembly.


	


Ooo. You might be able to save some time by riveting anchor nuts to 

an aluminum strip, then epoxying / riveting that to the butt rib. 

That way the anchor nut installation would be easy.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

MDKitfox(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I don't know if this will help, but there is a nutplate that doesn't require riveting.  You drill the hole for the fastener, peel off a protective piece of plastic on the nutplate to expose a glued surface and pull an attached plastic tang until the glued surface makes solid contact with undersurface of the structure.  Wait overnight and pull out the plastic tang and the nutplate is ready for use.  I think they have fixed and floating versions.  It's really slick.  It may be a little pricey at a dollar or two per nutplate, but if it works....



I believe the name of the company was Click Bond.  A friend of mine is building a Lancair 4P and is using them thru out his project.



 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com (bnn(at)nethere.com)>



At 11:10 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to figure out a way to secure the bolts to that strip.  Perhaps I could secure some regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the assembly.

	


Ooo. You might be able to save some time by riveting anchor nuts to an aluminum strip, then epoxying / riveting that to the butt rib. That way the anchor nut installation would be easy.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / War="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com========================

                         -M==========





	






=  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

That sounds like a good idea if it holds. After all, once installed,  

the nutplate is under tension until the bolt is unscrewed, then it is  

subjected to rotating forces which put the glued surface under sheer  

forces. If the glue is stronger than the resistive "self-locking"  

feature of the nutplate, the screw will come out and all will be  

well. If the glue now fails...years later, maybe...the plate will  

have to be held...if it can be accessed, and a new one installed.



I still like the idea of the riveted nutplate/anchor nut, with its  

shear-resistive rivets holding it in place.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't know if this will help, but there is a nutplate that  

 doesn't require riveting.  You drill the hole for the fastener,  

 peel off a protective piece of plastic on the nutplate to expose a  

 glued surface and pull an attached plastic tang until the glued  

 surface makes solid contact with undersurface of the structure.   

 Wait overnight and pull out the plastic tang and the nutplate is  

 ready for use.  I think they have fixed and floating versions.   

 It's really slick.  It may be a little pricey at a dollar or two  

 per nutplate, but if it works....



 I believe the name of the company was Click Bond.  A friend of mine  

 is building a Lancair 4P and is using them thru out his project.



 Rick Weiss

 N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

 SkyStar S/N 1

 Port Orange, FL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

Couple questions for ya Lynn;



Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?  

I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the anchor nuts call for.  Also I am not experienced with solid rivets and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?



Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC Spruce?

  The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100.  It takes an awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1 for rivets.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Very possible, if you can find 3/32" rivets. Spruce has a poor  

selection of rivets, but somebody has them, I'm sure. That's why I  

used solid rivets and a rivet squeezer. Is there an EAA chapter in  

your area? They might have one you could borrow. When I got my kit  

there were 3/32 rivets with it, but only 1/8" long. I'm sure they are  

out there somewhere. Maybe John McBean has a source, or you could  

Google for them, perhaps. Also try Wick's.



Another thought....the solid rivets in the AN426A style are soft, and  

as such, could be "bucked" with a hammer and bucking bar...a chunk of  

steel. These rivets would probably be more than strong enough to hold  

the K1000 anchor nuts in place. If worse came to worse, you could  

remove the butt ribs by drilling the rivets holding them on...about  

6-8 rivets per but rib as I recall, then take the butt rib to the  

workbench and rivet the anchor nuts on where it will be easier to use  

solid rivets and peen them by hand ...no special tools required.



Sounds like you are taking about the elastic-insert anchor nuts (at)  

over a buck each, and 6-32's (at) damn near $10...WOW!  I used the all  

metal anchor nuts (at) 51 to 61 cents each...10-32 or 8-32.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:55 PM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 Couple questions for ya Lynn;



 Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?

 I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the  

 anchor nuts call for.  Also I am not experienced with solid rivets  

 and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?



 Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC  

 Spruce?

   The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100.  It takes  

 an awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1  

 for rivets.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of instruction and  climbing (I solo tomorrow)





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30908#230908

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Sonex sells rivets. They have great prices and sone 3/32 nds. They don't have alot of lenght choices though.



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL



 

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Re: New issue C turtle deck security

 Date: Wed C 18 Feb 2009 19:55:03 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 Very possible C if you can find 3/32" rivets. Spruce has a poor 

 selection of rivets C but somebody has them C I'm sure. That's why I 

 used solid rivets and a rivet squeezer. Is there an EAA chapter in 

 your area? They might have one you could borrow. When I got my kit 

 there were 3/32 rivets with it C but only 1/8" long. I'm sure they are 

 out there somewhere. Maybe John McBean has a source C or you could 

 Google for them C perhaps. Also try Wick's.

 

 Another thought....the solid rivets in the AN426A style are soft C and 

 as such C could be "bucked" with a hammer and bucking bar...a chunk of 

 steel. These rivets would probably be more than strong enough to hold 

 the K1000 anchor nuts in place. If worse came to worse C you could 

 remove the butt ribs by drilling the rivets holding them on...about 

 6-8 rivets per but rib as I recall C then take the butt rib to the 

 workbench and rivet the anchor nuts on where it will be easier to use 

 solid rivets and peen them by hand ...no special tools required.

 

 Sounds like you are taking about the elastic-insert anchor nuts (at) 

 over a buck each C and 6-32's (at) damn near $10...WOW! I used the all 

 metal anchor nuts (at) 51 to 61 cents each...10-32 or 8-32.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 605 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 New skis done and flying

 

 

 

 

 On Feb 18 C 2009 C at 6:55 PM C WurlyBird wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" 

 > <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 >

 > Couple questions for ya Lynn;

 >

 > Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?

 > I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the 

 > anchor nuts call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets 

 > and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs C ya know?

 >

 > Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC 

 > Spruce?

 > The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100. It takes 

 > an awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1 

 > for rivets.

 >

 > --------

 > James

 > Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 > 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230908#230908

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 &gt=======================

&g==================
	


[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

When I worked for the AMO (Cdn for FBO) we would give away most common

rivets up to a handful at a time just to help people out.  



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

At 03:55 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?

I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the 

anchor nuts call for.  Also I am not experienced with solid rivets 

and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?


	


For 3/32 counter sunk rivets, see:



http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/28193.html

http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/28195.html



and



http://www.skygeek.com/hardware-cherry-rivetblind.html near the 

bottom of the page.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:23 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I second that, Lynn.  Some things last longer than others and nothing lasts 

forever.  As you, or someone else said, people often permanently cover the 

locking side of the fastener which makes it inaccessible, for example the 

butt rib and fuel tank area.  I've never felt comfortable with covering that 

area and have found no compelling reason for doing so other than aesthetics. 

If one is planning on covering that area it would make good sense to use 

permanent fasteners, like nut plates with rivets.  It takes some extra time, 

but the long term benefit and peace of mind is worth it when one needs to 

replace or remove the greenhouse for some reason.  If the butt rib isn't 

going to be covered, then it doesn't matter much what one uses so long as 

the fasteners cannot pull through the wood .  Well, I think I would avoid 3" 

drywall screws!  As someone else said, there is probably some lift in that 

area.  Well, let me tell you, THERE IS LIFT in that area, and I know from 

experience.  If you don't have those fasteners well secured, the lift can 

and probably will eventually lift the windshield right off the butt ribs.

Personally, on my S5 I just used #6 SS truss head screws with nylock nuts, 

all of which are easy to access as I didn't cover the butt ribs.  No washers 

are necessary.  There is no magic bullet here as there are several methods 

that will work fine.  Just use common sense and look at the long term.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:34 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I'm not sure what type of anchor nuts you are referring to, but below are 

some that will work fine, sans the gold plating.  The ones at .36 each will 

work fine as will the K1000 at .51 each.



They also have the countersunk blind rivets, see below.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts.php



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert





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