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Aileron stiffness and force - XL
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AndrewC

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Scotland, UK

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Hi there



I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight.  By excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it fixed.  Elevator control is fine by comparison.



My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK authorities.  Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral.  Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would like.  I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a starting point, but this is really too much! 



The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't know what to change to try and sort it out.  Experience of anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated.  The twin stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing.  This arrangement seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here.  Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to neutral than left.  Any ideas?!  



Thanks in advance

Andrew

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Do you get the same stiffness on the ground?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

AndrewC wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi there



I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight.  By excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it fixed.  Elevator control is fine by comparison.



My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK authorities.  Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral.  Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would like.  I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a starting point, but this is really too much! 



The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't know what to change to try and sort it out.  Experience of anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated.  The twin stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing.  This arrangement seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here.  Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to neutral than left.  Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] 



Thanks in advance

Andrew



  




	


Andrew,

It's entirely possible that someone has cut the hinge/aileron material 

from something thicker than the .016 material needed for the ailerons.

Normally, the aileron force is slight to nil in standard turns and at 

slow speed major aileron action can be felt as more resistant, but not 

something

so noticeable to require a change.  Better check your cables, belcranks 

stick bearings and such for friction points and lubricate them first.



Larry McFarland - 601hds

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Hi Andrew,



I wonder if the aileron bell crank pivot bolts are tightened too 

much.  Also, this area needs some lubricant, but I don't think lack 

of lubricant would have as much impact as your problem indicates.



I would suggest you start disconnecting parts, starting at the bolt 

in the aileron control horn and feel for the tight movement.  If you 

keep dividing the aileron control system in half and chasing down the 

tight spot you should find it rather quickly.



Good luck,



Paul

XL wings

At 11:01 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi there



I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and 

the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to 

operate in flight.  By excessive I mean, two hands are required and 

my test pilot rightly wants it fixed.  Elevator control is fine by comparison.



My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by 

the UK authorities.  Application of right stick is heavier than left 

and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back 

half-way towards neutral.  Left aileron behaves normally by 

comparison but is still heavier than I would like.  I understand 

that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a 

starting point, but this is really too much!



The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way 

and don't know what to change to try and sort it out.  Experience of 

anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated.  The twin 

stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through 

metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal 

plates) and one delron bearing.  This arrangement seems quite high 

friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here.  Also I 

can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more 

prone to return to neutral than left.  Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]



Thanks in advance

Andrew

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

I would first unfasten the ailerons from the rest of the system at the 

ailerons.  Then try see if the binding is still there.  If it is, then the 

problem may be as simple as lubrication or something in the way.  If the 

binding goes away, then your have a trailing edge that isn't straight.  You 

can check this first if you wish just by sighting down the trailing edge. 

If it isn't straight, then you have a rebuild project.



Cy Galley - Chair,

Air Emergency Aircraft Repair

A Service Project of Chapter 75

EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC

EAA Sport Pilot

---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Purely a novice suggestion: 



Try measuring aileron cable tension at various positions of the stick to see if it's something related to the control geometry. Tension is supposed to be 25 inch-pounds +/-5. 



If cable tensions are fairly consistant throughout the range of stick motion, I'd start looking for things that bind or rub. At a minimum, cable tension mesurments may help you narrow down which part of the control mechanism is stiffest.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

It may be that the aileron torque tube is slightly out of round. If the

bearing surface that the torque tube rides in is also slightly out of round,

at certain angles of rotation, the two could bind. This could happen if you

tighten the nut on the bolt holding the stop ring on the front of the torque

tube on the standard "Y" stick too tight. I don't know it the twin stick

option has a similar arrangement. You can't tighten the bolts going through

the steel tubes to the torque recommended in the torque tables because it

can crush the tubes. As I recall these bolts are drilled and use castle

nuts, so you just get them snug and install the cotter pin.



In any case, you will probably have to disconnect the aileron cables to

isolate the problem

on 2/27/06 2:01 PM, AndrewC at andrewgcampbell(at)tiscali.co.uk wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi there

 

 I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme

 du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight.  By

 excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it

 fixed.  Elevator control is fine by comparison.

 

 My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK

 authorities.  Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right

 is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral.

 Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would

 like.  I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other

 planes as a starting point, but this is really too much!

 

 The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't

 know what to change to try and sort it out.  Experience of anyone who has the

 twin stick would be much appreciated.  The twin stick arrangement appears to

 have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are

 really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing.  This arrangement

 seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here.

 Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more

 prone to return to neutral than left.  Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]

 

 Thanks in advance

 Andrew

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Andrew, I have to go along with Larry. Something is just not right ???? I 

have duel sticks in my XL with a Jab 3300 and about 55 hours. A problem I had 

with initial flights was the right aileron was a beast. Then I noticed I did not 

have my rudder centered. The rudder was so stiff initially that at anything 

over 100 mph it would not center on it's own. After I got used to re centering 

the ball during climb out as the P factor played out the stiff right aileron 

went away. Further, without aileron trim and no passenger the right aileron 

should be a little stiff compared to left. Now she is so nimble it's scary. Breath 

left or right and I'm dragging a wing tip. I recommend you re check fairleads 

to see if they are binding. Also, the thread had a series of posts concerning 

adjusting ailerons down some time back, but I can't remember why ?? Check the 

archives, Best of Luck, Bill of Georgia N505WP

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Needless to say that please dont fly the plane until you find the problem...

  Paul idea is a good one.

  Saludos

  Gary Gower

  Beguining a 601 XL kit.

  Do not archive.



Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote:

  

Hi Andrew,



I wonder if the aileron bell crank pivot bolts are tightened too 

much. Also, this area needs some lubricant, but I don't think lack 

of lubricant would have as much impact as your problem indicates.



I would suggest you start disconnecting parts, starting at the bolt 

in the aileron control horn and feel for the tight movement. If you 

keep dividing the aileron control system in half and chasing down the 

tight spot you should find it rather quickly.



Good luck,



Paul

XL wings

At 11:01 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi there



I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and 

the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to 

operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and 

my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison.



My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by 

the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left 

and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back 

half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by 

comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand 

that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a 

starting point, but this is really too much!



The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way 

and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of 

anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin 

stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through 

metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal 

plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high 

friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I 

can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more 

prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]



Thanks in advance

Andrew




	


		

---------------------------------

AndrewC

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Scotland, UK

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Guys,



Thanks for all the suggestions, will give them all a thorough check through at the weekend and hopefully will get to the bottom of it.  There definitely seems to be some friction at the torque tube end and I had wondered whether the design of the elevator attachment might have given it a left tendency sure enough.  When the cables weren't connected everything was fairly smooth so perhaps it is as simple as cable tension (I certainly hope so).  So I'm going to apply some lube, and progressively go through the connections until I sort this thing out! Certainly can't keep flying with almost full aileron trim just to maintain straight and level...!  



Cheers

Andrew

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Andrew,

Don't over tension those cables.  I believe 20-25 lbs should be the max 

on those. To have more could

likely cause more friction, wear and early deflection on the belcrank 

mounts.



Larry McFarland

do not archive



AndrewC wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Guys,



Thanks for all the suggestions, will give them all a thorough check through at the weekend and hopefully will get to the bottom of it.  There definitely seems to be some friction at the torque tube end and I had wondered whether the design of the elevator attachment might have given it a left tendency sure enough.  When the cables weren't connected everything was fairly smooth so perhaps it is as simple as cable tension (I certainly hope so).  So I'm going to apply some lube, and progressively go through the connections until I sort this thing out! Certainly can't keep flying with almost full aileron trim just to maintain straight and level...!  



Cheers

Andrew





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18555#18555

AndrewC

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Scotland, UK

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Thanks again for all the postings on this topic.  They were all very helpful and I've now finished the test schedule and the problem is now almost gone (or at least within acceptable limits).  



It looks as though the source of the problem is that my right wing is generating slightly more lift than the left one.  There are two possible cuplrits: one flap appears to be a couple of millimetres lower than the other (no guesses for which side) and there may be a slight twist in the wing but I'll be checking that shortly with my digital protractor at each rib and comparing the same points on each wing.  Wing incidence seems to be okay otherwise.  Lubrication merely helped the ailerons find their balance; right aileron naturally falls, presumably the weight of the trim servo etc on that aileron.  In flight the forces were still the same though so at least it was aerodynamic and we've solved it by adjusting the turnbuckles so both ailerons are equal to the level of the flaps.  The plans show the flaps should protrude above the airflow by around 3mm, so that's where the ailerons are now with stick centred and the forces are much reduced.  Also the aileron trim is now back towards the middle in level flight too.  



The rudder pedal rods will also be adjusted a couple of turns to give a little bit left rudder when pedals are equal - the ball wasn't quite centred in straight and level flight.  



Performance figures are a little on the disappointing side for me though.  I had hoped to be within 10 knots of the oft quoted cruise speed of 120 knots.  No such luck.  75% cruise at 5000rpm on the Rotax 912ULS gives around 95 knots around 1000feet.  TAS at 5000 feet with more power came out at around 110 knots.  I've no intention of flying at max continuous, as I like my engine, so looks like I'll have to settle for 100 knot 80% cruise.  At least she flies...

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

I have a woodcomp 3-blade on my 912USL, I set the pitch to 17 degrees to top out at about 130 MPH. 15 degrees yields 115 MPG. 13 degrees yields best climb, less p-factor tendancy, but maxes out at about 100 MPH.



I also noticed a tendency for the aircraft to turn left excessively. I thought it was my ailerons or a heavy wing, but turns out that it's my fat ass. Try flying with left tank near empty, right tank near full. Maybe it won't help, but it's easy enough to try.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

---

professor71(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

After 140hrs on my 601HD I just installed aileron trim. Before, when flying 

solo, the plane wanted to roll to the left. When carrying a passenger it 

flies pretty even. If you are in the building process I would definately go 

with the aileron trim. Much easier to do now than later.



John

[quote]From: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk(at)alltel.net>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:20:56 -0500




---

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

I notice a left turn tendency when flying solo in any of several flying club

Cessna 150s. These are well maintained airplanes, usually used for dual

instruction.  I never noticed the left turn tendency with an instructor or

passenger.  I wish the 150 had aileron trim.



George Swinford



Do not archive



---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

P.S. I have the aileron trim :) It's trimmed nearly full right when I solo. It takes less trim adjustment eventually when I burn off left tank first.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

My landing light is in the right wing for exactly that same reason.



Phil

N601MX

XL/Corvair

 	  Quote: 	
		       The person who owned the first Zenith I'd ever seen up close- a 

gorgeous

HDS, commented on the same left turn tendency. He said that if he had to do

it all over again, he'd put as much accessory weight as he could in the

right side. Consequently, I put my landing light and aileron trim in the

right wing.

     Before cutting metal, I contacted EAA to find out if there was any reg

against putting a landing light in the right wing. According to the EAA

Technical Counselor, you can put the landing light anywhere, but he said 

the

problem was probably aerodynamic and not weight related.

     As light as the Zenith is, there's a possibility that weight really is 

a

factor, but three people noticing the same tendency is not conclusive.

     Anyone else want to "Weigh in"?



                                                     Bill

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

Bill, my XL flies with a little heavy left wing when I fly alone, but when I 

carry someone the tendency disappears and depending on weight of passenger I 

may not even need to input any aileron trim. I suppose that the ZAC folks 

designed these factors into the plane. Before I would weigh the right side to 

balance for one I would consider what that will do when the two people weight is 

factored in. Might then have a heavy right wing. FWIW, Bill of Georgia

don not archive

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Aileron stiffness and force - XL

My EAA tech advisor has suggested a "bungee trim" for ailerons in lieu of a 

wing-mounted trim tab.  It would be connected to the aileron cables inside the 

fuselage with a mechanical control (ala Piper elevator trim).

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