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Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

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capt_riney(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

I had a 20 gal aluminum tank made for my MIII project. For those of you who have done something similar, how did you support it?  I'm planning on riveting an .063 thick aluminum pan to the steel cage tabs (the same tabs that would have been used for the two 5-gal jug pan) and strapping the tank to it.  The pan dimensions are 36" x 14". Should I go thicker on the aluminum?  Do I need to weld more supports to the cage?  20 gal is a lot of weight and I want to be sure it's properly supported.  Thanks.



Mark Rinehart

Indy Kolb MIII

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

Ultimately the tank is supported by the frame tubes that the plate is mounted on. Why not eliminate the middleman and have some tabs welded to the tank that align with the tabs on the frame and bolt the new tank in. Just a thought. 



Rick

do not archive



On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 5:20 PM, mark rinehart <capt_riney(at)yahoo.com (capt_riney(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: mark rinehart <capt_riney(at)yahoo.com (capt_riney(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 

 I had a 20 gal aluminum tank made for my MIII project. For those of you who have done something similar, how did you support it?  I'm planning on riveting an .063 thick aluminum pan to the steel cage tabs (the same tabs that would have been used for the two 5-gal jug pan) and strapping the tank to it.  The pan dimensions are 36" x 14". Should I go thicker on the aluminum?  Do I need to weld more supports to the cage?  20 gal is a lot of weight and I want to be sure it's properly supported.  Thanks.

  

 Mark Rinehart

 Indy Kolb MIII

 

 

 

 

 

 

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

I also had custom tanks made, mine are kidney type and they go on the bottom straddling the tail boom. In fact I just recently finished welding lateral brackets to support the tanks. If you can post a photo of your tanks so I know where they go, maybe I can offer some ideas from what I have done.

Ron (at)  KFHU

=================

---- mark rinehart <capt_riney(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 



=============


I had a 20 gal aluminum tank made for my MIII project. For those of you who have done something similar, how did you support it?  I'm planning on riveting an .063 thick aluminum pan to the steel cage tabs (the same tabs that would have been used for the two 5-gal jug pan) and strapping the tank to it.  The pan dimensions are 36" x 14". Should I go thicker on the aluminum?  Do I need to weld more supports to the cage?  20 gal is a lot of weight and I want to be sure it's properly supported.  Thanks.



Mark Rinehart

Indy Kolb MIII 





      



--

kugelair.com

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

Here's how we did it.



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/fuel_tank.htm

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

I like your design, its simpler than mine. I certainly think you ought to run another lateral brace with a support base off the tail boom. Your wood support as temporary as it is right now should be used with some alteration to be the base on the tail boom to distribute the load. 

If I remember (gotta fly up to PHX today) when I come back I'll scribble something down as an idea for you to consider. But I like your design, way less plumbing than mine, about 5 gallons less total fuel than my M3X, but not often I see a need for more than 15 gallons anyway. 

The short answer yes you need to brace the bottom of your tanks for sure, flight loads and the weight will bend the tubes down on the frame to where it will start  contacting the control tube. 



Ron (at) KFHU

==============================



---- icrashrc <icrashrc(at)aol.com> wrote: 



=============




Here's how we did it.



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/fuel_tank.htm



--------

Scott



www.ill-EagleAviation.com



do not archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 45368#245368

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

We tested to a 5 g positive, 3 g negative load and all the tank supports did was laugh at our attempts. There's really no possibility of the mounting tubes bending. The only way for the tank to get lower would be for the perimeter of the fuselage to collapse. The way the tank braces are made makes even this very unlikely. I may have a couple better pictures of the setup. If so I'll post them in the next few days. Also, remember the factory setup puts 12 gallons of fuel on those tubes WITHOUT stiffening the tubes as we have.



Scott



 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  I like your design, its simpler than mine. I certainly think you ought to run another lateral brace with a support base off the tail boom. Your wood support as temporary as it is right now should be used with some alteration to be the base on the tail boom to distribute the load. 

If I remember (gotta fly up to PHX today) when I come back I'll scribble something down as an idea for you to consider. But I like your design, way less plumbing than mine, about 5 gallons less total fuel than my M3X, but not often I see a need for more than 15 gallons anyway. 

The short answer yes you need to brace the bottom of your tanks for sure, flight loads and the weight will bend the tubes down on the frame to where it will start  contacting the control tube. 



Ron (at) KFHU

==============================



---- icrashrc <icrashrc> wrote: 



=============

Here's how we did it.



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/fuel_tank.htm



--------

Scott



www.ill-EagleAviation.com



do not archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 45368#245368

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

Okay that will be good to see a clearer picture of the tank area. I took some more pics yesterday when I came back of my set up, and as soon as I can remember where I put the camera I'll post them. I really should take some pics of the tanks themselves, as in my design they take quite a bit of the structural load. But I also added some lower bracing and some lateral bracing in tension to keep the tanks from wanting to strain on the frame outwards. As someone mentioned years ago not till I am on my third Kolb will I be able to get it all just right. right now my main emphasis is to build it strong and if its a few pounds more then so be it. I will have excess HP so in all I don't expect it will affect performance all that much if any. All I want to do right now is finish it some time before the end of the century. 





---- icrashrc <icrashrc(at)aol.com> wrote: 



=============




We tested to a 5 g positive, 3 g negative load and all the tank supports did was laugh at our attempts. There's really no possibility of the mounting tubes bending. The only way for the tank to get lower would be for the perimeter of the fuselage to collapse. The way the tank braces are made makes even this very unlikely. I may have a couple better pictures of the setup. If so I'll post them in the next few days. Also, remember the factory setup puts 12 gallons of fuel on those tubes WITHOUT stiffening the tubes as we have.



Scott

captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I like your design, its simpler than mine. I certainly think you ought to run another lateral brace with a support base off the tail boom. Your wood support as temporary as it is right now should be used with some alteration to be the base on the tail boom to distribute the load. 

 If I remember (gotta fly up to PHX today) when I come back I'll scribble something down as an idea for you to consider. But I like your design, way less plumbing than mine, about 5 gallons less total fuel than my M3X, but not often I see a need for more than 15 gallons anyway. 

 The short answer yes you need to brace the bottom of your tanks for sure, flight loads and the weight will bend the tubes down on the frame to where it will start  contacting the control tube. 

 

 Ron (at) KFHU

 ==============================

 

 ---- icrashrc  wrote: 

 

 =============

 

 

 Here's how we did it.

 

 http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/fuel_tank.htm

 

 --------

 Scott

 

 www.ill-EagleAviation.com

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 45368#245368


	






Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 45526#245526



--

kugelair.com

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

I am wanting to build a larger gas tank also but one thing I haven't seen or addressed is W&B with more weight being shifted to the rear. I have a Mark IIIC with a  912 UL and the factory two 5 gal tanks and had to install the adjustable forward horz stablizer brkts for duel flight. I am installing an electric horz stablizer trim system now so as not to have to change the pin locations for solo and duel operations. That have you had to do to address this problem with the larger gas tanks?   

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

 From: icrashrc(at)aol.com

 Date: Tue C 26 May 2009 00:49:45 -0700

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "icrashrc" <icrashrc(at)aol.com>

 Here's how we did it.

 http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/fuel_tank.htm

 --------

 Scott

 www.ill-EagleAviation.com

 do not archive

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245368#245368

&gt==============

[quote] 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

For what it is worth, I have a 25 gal aluminum fuel  tank in my mkIII.  Don't know how much the tank weighs, but it carries 150  lbs of fuel.  In addition to that, I carry aprx'ly 125 lbs of gear under  the fuel tank in my cargo compartment.  To top it off, I have a 12  lb Maule Tundra Tailwheel, 8" pneumatic, mounted, in addition to a 912ULS  with a 4" prop extension and a 3 blade WD Prop with nickle steel leading  edges.

  

 My mkIII flies well.  Extreme testing in every  attitude, normal and unusual, I could think of indicates it does not have an aft  cg problem.  Just completed a 60.2 hour flight over 18 days in some of the  most difficult flying conditions I have encountered in 25 years of doing serious  cross country flights in Kolb aircraft.  Extreme cross winds, 6500 ft field  elevations, 9300 ft density altitude, and dust devils, all encountered at the  same time by three intrepid Kolb mkIII adventurers in Grants, NM.  I might  add, my mkIII was at its max gross weight of 1200 lbs during this time  frame.

  

 The leading edge of my horizontal stabilizer is  positioned below the standard position in the plans.  Experimentation  indicates it is now in a "sweet spot" for best cruise flight with or without a  passenger.  We installed adjustable attachments to accomplish this during  the fabrication phase of the fuselage at the Kolb Factory in 1991, along with  the 25 gal fuel tank.

  

 The major difference between my mkIII and a plans  built mkIII is position of the main landing gear, which places the axles 8"  forward of the stock location.  This will offset aft cg a tad, but not much  at its location near the cg.

  

 I emphasize, this is how I configured my mkIII and  it works great for me.  I don't recommend others follow suit.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    From: ross richardson (smlplanet(at)msn.com)    

    

    

I am wanting to build a larger    gas tank also but one thing I haven't seen or addressed is W&B with    more weight being shifted to the rear. I have a Mark IIIC with a     912 UL and the factory two 5 gal tanks and had to install the    adjustable forward horz stablizer brkts for duel flight. I am installing    an electric horz stablizer trim system now so as not to have to    change the pin locations for solo and duel operations. That have you had    to do to address this problem with the larger gas    tanks?   

 

 [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

I am wanting to build a larger gas tank also but one thing I haven't seen or addressed is W&B with more weight being shifted to the rear. I have a Mark IIIC with a  912 UL and the factory two 5 gal tanks and had to install the adjustable forward horz stablizer brkts for duel flight. I am installing an electric horz stablizer trim system now so as not to have to change the pin locations for solo and duel operations. That have you had to do to address this problem with the larger gas tanks?   

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


I bought the 16 gal alum fuel tank that was a factory option in 1998.   when doing W&B  on my mkIIIC  I determined  the cg of the fuel tank is verrrrry close to the rear cg limit.   When flying solo I am near the rear cg,    from full to empty fuel,   the cg does not move more than a quarter inch.   When I am flying with a passenger,  my cg is closer to the center of the range,  and as I burn off fuel the cg will creep forward.   Even at empty tanks I am well within the limits,   so to answer your question “That have you had to do to address this problem with the larger gas tanks? “  there is no problem with my set up.        Now if your fuel tank installs further aft than mine does.  You will have to do the math.    

   

Boyd young  

   

   

       [quote][b]

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

Boyd,

 Does your tank install from behind the seats like  the new xtra tank?

 I saw Kolbs online video of installing a big tank  in the Xtra and was wondering if the regular Mk-3 had the same  option.

  

 Denny Rowe

  	  Quote: 	
		        

 

      

I bought the 16 gal    alum fuel tank that was a factory option in 1998.   when doing    W&B  on my mkIIIC  I determined  the cg of the fuel tank is    verrrrry close to the rear cg limit.   When flying solo I am near    the rear cg,    from full to empty fuel,   the cg    does not move more than a quarter inch.   When I am flying with a    passenger,  my cg is closer to the center of the range,  and as I    burn off fuel the cg will creep forward.   Even at empty tanks I am    well within the limits,   so to answer your question    “That have you had to do to    address this problem with the larger gas tanks? “  there is no problem with my set    up.        Now if your fuel tank installs    further aft than mine does.  You will have to do the math.        

    

Boyd    young   

    

 

	
   [quote][b]

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

John, 

This post leads to a question I've been meaning to ask for a while now. Have you done a weight & balance lately on your plane with it loaded up and ready for a trip? I'm hoping to get an idea of acceptable CG range so i have some idea of where to start during flight testing. Thank you,



Scott



And yes, let's make it clear that whatever range you post is suitable for YOUR aircraft only!





[quote="John Hauck"]For what it is worth, I have a 25 gal aluminum fuel  tank in my mkIII.  Don't know how much the tank weighs, but it carries 150  lbs of fuel.  In addition to that, I carry aprx'ly 125 lbs of gear under  the fuel tank in my cargo compartment.  To top it off, I have a 12  lb Maule Tundra Tailwheel, 8" pneumatic, mounted, in addition to a 912ULS  with a 4" prop extension and a 3 blade WD Prop with nickle steel leading  edges.

  

 My mkIII flies well.  Extreme testing in every  attitude, normal and unusual, I could think of indicates it does not have an aft  cg problem.  Just completed a 60.2 hour flight over 18 days in some of the  most difficult flying conditions I have encountered in 25 years of doing serious  cross country flights in Kolb aircraft.  Extreme cross winds, 6500 ft field  elevations, 9300 ft density altitude, and dust devils, all encountered at the  same time by three intrepid Kolb mkIII adventurers in Grants, NM.  I might  add, my mkIII was at its max gross weight of 1200 lbs during this time  frame.

  

 The leading edge of my horizontal stabilizer is  positioned below the standard position in the plans.  Experimentation  indicates it is now in a "sweet spot" for best cruise flight with or without a  passenger.  We installed adjustable attachments to accomplish this during  the fabrication phase of the fuselage at the Kolb Factory in 1991, along with  the 25 gal fuel tank.

  

 The major difference between my mkIII and a plans  built mkIII is position of the main landing gear, which places the axles 8"  forward of the stock location.  This will offset aft cg a tad, but not much  at its location near the cg.

  

 I emphasize, this is how I configured my mkIII and  it works great for me.  I don't recommend others follow suit.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  	  Quote: 	
		      From: ross richardson (smlplanet(at)msn.com)    

    

    

I am wanting to build a larger    gas tank also but one thing I haven't seen or addressed is W&B with    more weight being shifted to the rear. I have a Mark IIIC with a     912 UL and the factory two 5 gal tanks and had to install the    adjustable forward horz stablizer brkts for duel flight. I am installing    an electric horz stablizer trim system now so as not to have to    change the pin locations for solo and duel operations. That have you had    to do to address this problem with the larger gas    tanks?   

 

 [b]

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

> This post leads to a question I've been meaning to ask for a while now. 

Have you done a weight & balance lately on your plane with it loaded up and 

ready for a trip? I'm hoping to get an idea of acceptable CG range so i have 

some idea of where to start during flight testing. Thank you,

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Scott


	




I haven't done a weight and balance in a some time.



I am sure the results would be very interesting.



However, there has been extensive flight testing which indicates forward and 

aft cg are in an acceptable range.



I'd be glad to let you do a weight and balance on my mkIII.  I don't have 

scales or a good place to do one now.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: Aluminum Fuel Tank for MIII

Denny  

   

As I remember there are 3 tubes behind the seats that have to come out to install the tank.  When I ordered the cage they made provisions for the tubes to be removed.    There are  tubes that come from either side of the boom tube that join at the center of a cross over tube at the center behind the two seats,   and one tube from the boom tube area to the left corner behind the seats.   The first two they welded at the factory a small tab on the tubes so we could drill a hole and install a bolt to get them in and out…  the third has a small sleeve that goes over where the tube was cut at top and bottom and the sleeve is riveted to the stubs at both ends and also the tube.    The tank slides back into the area just behind the seats and sits on the same  diagonal tubes that support the plastic tank tray.    On the sides of the diagonal tubes there are some tabs welded down, and there is some aluminum angle welded to the bottom of the tank that bolts to the tabs.  I drilled the holes in the alum angles a bit over sized and inserted a rubber bushing in the hole and also have a rubber washer on both sides of the angle,   this gives the tank a rubber mount to help eliminate vibrations from cracking things.   The tank has a curve cut into the bottom to go around and over  the  aileron torque tube.  So there are 2 outlets on the bottom that have to be connected together to get all the fuel out of the tank.   John h  tank fits in the area behind his head where mine is behind the seats.  He has the area behind the seats for storage,,  I use the area above the tank for storage.   And he carries 9 more gallons than I do.   

   

If you have any other questions I can try and explain or send photos.  

   

   

Boyd  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..  

   
	


Boyd,  

Does your tank install from behind the seats like the new xtra tank?  

I saw Kolbs online video of installing a big tank in the Xtra and was wondering if the regular Mk-3 had the same option.  

   

Denny Rowe  

   

   

I bought the 16 gal alum fuel tank that was a factory option in 1998.   when doing W&B  on my mkIIIC  I determined  the cg of the fuel tank is verrrrry close to the rear cg limit.   When flying solo I am near the rear cg,    from full to empty fuel,   the cg does not move more than a quarter inch.   When I am flying with a passenger,  my cg is closer to the center of the range,  and as I burn off fuel the cg will creep forward.   Even at empty tanks I am well within the limits,   so to answer your question “That have you had to do to address this problem with the larger gas tanks? “  there is no problem with my set up.        Now if your fuel tank installs further aft than mine does.  You will have to do the math.    

   

Boyd young  

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

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