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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

My QB came with the rear seat crotch strap attachment installed. Does anyone use this? Any reason not to remove it? (I keep kneeling on it, and it hurts!)

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

jdriggs49(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

The discussions i've seen make it appear that most folks cut it off. I'm at the same stage in building and I'm really tired of sitting on it! One of these days I'll get agrivated enough to whack it off

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

 From: bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu

 Date: Tue C 9 Jun 2009 11:44:40 -0700

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>

 My QB came with the rear seat crotch strap attachment installed. Does anyone use this? Any reason not to remove it? (I keep kneeling on it C and it hurts!)

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247452#247452

&gt=======================

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[quote] 

Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I cut mine out...most have I think 



Rick Sked

N246RS

Final assembly

---

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I kept mine.  They aren't that big a deal once you start flying.



Dave



On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

  

 My QB came with the rear seat crotch strap attachment installed. Does anyone use this? Any reason not to remove it? (I keep kneeling on it, and it hurts!)

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247452#247452

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

If I remember correctly, I drilled out the rivets and saved the brackets.



[quote] I cut mine out...most have I think



 Rick Sked

 N246RS

 Final assembly

 ---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I'm sure SOMEONE left theirs on, but to date I don't remember ever

seeing one in person.  That lug is a knee-gouge waiting to happen.

For what it's worth, even when my kids were much smaller, the 4

points left without the crotch strap are plenty to hold them in.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



Danny Riggs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The discussions i've seen make it appear that most folks cut it off. I'm 

 at the same stage in building and I'm really tired of sitting on it! One 

 of these days I'll get agrivated enough to whack it off

  

  > Subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

  > From: bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu

  > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:44:40 -0700

  > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

  >

  > 

  >

  > My QB came with the rear seat crotch strap attachment installed. Does 

 anyone use this? Any reason not to remove it? (I keep kneeling on it, 

 and it hurts!)

  >

  > --------

  > Bob Turner

  > RV-10 QB

  >

  >

  >

  >

  > Read this topic online here:

  >

  > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 47452#247452

  >

  >

  >

  >

  >=======================

 &g=================

  >

  >

  >

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. 

 <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009>

 

 *

 

 

 *

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Now I know what that left over piece in the parts box is...................

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:27 am Post subject: Re: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I'm leaving mine in; it prevents "submarining." I'm not planning on a crash but it would be nice for the rear seat occupants to actually be sitting in their seats when it comes to a stop.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Submarining isn't usually a problem in sudden deceleration.  The torso 

moves forward keeping the lap belt across the hips until the shoulder 

strap gets really tight.  A 5-point harness helps if you're doing wild 

aerobatics or tumbling down the track in your racecar.

My Pitts has a 5-point harness, but I've never felt pressure in my 

crotch from it.

Linn



johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm leaving mine in; it prevents "submarining." I'm not planning on a crash but it would be nice for the rear seat occupants to actually be sitting in their seats when it comes to a stop.

 John

 

 --------

 #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.

 N711JG reserved

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 47680#247680

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I've always found it interesting that there are provisions for a 5 point

for the rear seats but not the front...  I removed them.



Bob

N442PM



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Being a guy and all, I think I'm more afraid of what would

happen if I actually NEEDED the crotch strap in a crash.

If it seriously maimed me there, I think maybe I would

be wishing I hadn't been wearing any belt... 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

linn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Submarining isn't usually a problem in sudden deceleration.  The torso 

 moves forward keeping the lap belt across the hips until the shoulder 

 strap gets really tight.  A 5-point harness helps if you're doing wild 

 aerobatics or tumbling down the track in your racecar.

 My Pitts has a 5-point harness, but I've never felt pressure in my 

 crotch from it.

 Linn

 

 johngoodman wrote:

> 

> <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>

>

> I'm leaving mine in; it prevents "submarining." I'm not planning on a 

> crash but it would be nice for the rear seat occupants to actually be 

> sitting in their seats when it comes to a stop.

> John

>

> --------

> #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.

> N711JG reserved

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 47680#247680

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: Re: rear seat crotch strap attachment

The most important function the submarine strap serves (in my opinion) is to keep the lap belt position properly low across your pelvis.  The standard shoulder belts supplied are pulled tight by the occupant, when this is done it can pull the lap belt up onto your stomach, which is bad.  The inertia reel helps solve this....



I have used seat belts on several occasions, I wear them all the time.  I can say from my racing past, actually from my race car crashing past, that I have walked away with bruised hips, shoulders, chest, and ribs.  I have never felt it where it counts, if you get what I mean (I may have blocked certain memories though).  When the car doesn't fit where you thought it might, those nice wide 5 point harnesses make it a bearable experience.



I was in an extremely bad automobile crash when I was 16, I ran a car into a bridge, I am here because of a seat belt.  I shattered my pelvis and ankle in addition to a laundry list of other injuries like third degree burns, I spent six months in a wheel chair.  The seat was ripped out of the car by the impact, fire consumed the car, and a friendly truck driver pulled me from the burning car to save my life.  Lots of things went right, starting with a properly functioning seat belt.



I have heard the argument that some don't plan to survive the crash anyway, so the seat belt is a formality.  Like everything we do we assume certain risk, hopefully we have made the right decisions and these risks are always out of our control.  I will accept the risks of flying, but I will do everything in my control to provide safety, so when it goes wrong, I have the deck stacked as best as I can.



We added 5 point harnesses to the front seats and kept the 5 point in the rear seat.



Please don't take this as soap boxing, just sharing my real life experiences so others can learn from it instead of having to learn it on your own the hard way.



Jason Kreidler

N44YH - Flying

4 Partner Build #40617

Wayne Elsner

Kyle Hokel

Tony Kolar

Jason Kreidler

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Considering your luck with cars, are you sure you want to press your luck in aircraft?  



Rick Sked

N246RS

DAR in 3

Do not archive

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Thought had crossed my mind.....  



Jason



DO NOT ARCHIVE

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:58 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Agreed. Although I removed the crotch strap lugs in the rear, I installed

inertial reels at all four seats. Seat belts " don't get no respect" until

you need them.  



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

That's quite the life changing experience!  Don't get me wrong,

if someone wants 5 point harnesses, that's great, go ahead

and add them, and like you...ad them to the front too while

you're at it.  Can't hurt.  I didn't want 5 points, and

feel the 4 point ones met my needs just perfectly.  (They're

way better than the 3 point ones in most planes...and WAY WAY

better than only 2 point harnesses)  I just wanted to point out

in my previous posting that the 4 points adjust well and

we have no problem properly positioning the belts for

the adults or kids in the plane.   To me, if there's a weak

link anywhere it's the bolt through the cabin top.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

jkreidler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>

 

 The most important function the submarine strap serves (in my

 opinion) is to keep the lap belt position properly low across your

 pelvis.  The standard shoulder belts supplied are pulled tight by the

 occupant, when this is done it can pull the lap belt up onto your

 stomach, which is bad.  The inertia reel helps solve this....

 

 I have used seat belts on several occasions, I wear them all the

 time.  I can say from my racing past, actually from my race car

 crashing past, that I have walked away with bruised hips, shoulders,

 chest, and ribs.  I have never felt it where it counts, if you get

 what I mean (I may have blocked certain memories though).  When the

 car doesn't fit where you thought it might, those nice wide 5 point

 harnesses make it a bearable experience.

 

 I was in an extremely bad automobile crash when I was 16, I ran a car

 into a bridge, I am here because of a seat belt.  I shattered my

 pelvis and ankle in addition to a laundry list of other injuries like

 third degree burns, I spent six months in a wheel chair.  The seat

 was ripped out of the car by the impact, fire consumed the car, and a

 friendly truck driver pulled me from the burning car to save my life.

 Lots of things went right, starting with a properly functioning seat

 belt.

 

 I have heard the argument that some don't plan to survive the crash

 anyway, so the seat belt is a formality.  Like everything we do we

 assume certain risk, hopefully we have made the right decisions and

 these risks are always out of our control.  I will accept the risks

 of flying, but I will do everything in my control to provide safety,

 so when it goes wrong, I have the deck stacked as best as I can.

 

 We added 5 point harnesses to the front seats and kept the 5 point in

 the rear seat.

 

 Please don't take this as soap boxing, just sharing my real life

 experiences so others can learn from it instead of having to learn it

 on your own the hard way.

 

 Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying 4 Partner Build #40617 Wayne Elsner 

 Kyle Hokel Tony Kolar Jason Kreidler

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 47797#247797

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

jkreidler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>

 

 The most important function the submarine strap serves (in my

 opinion) is to keep the lap belt position properly low across your

 pelvis.

I didn't think so until I thought about it.
	


   The standard shoulder belts supplied are pulled tight by the

 	  Quote: 	
		   occupant, when this is done it can pull the lap belt up onto your

 stomach, which is bad.

This is true, but if the lap belt is snug and the shoulder belt is 
	


tightened, it won't pull up.  At least not enough to matter.

   The inertia reel helps solve this....

Not really.  The inertia reel will allow you much more upper body 

movement freedom ..... until you really need it to hold you in place.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have used seat belts on several occasions, I wear them all the

 time.  I can say from my racing past, actually from my race car

 crashing past, that I have walked away with bruised hips, shoulders,

 chest, and ribs.  I have never felt it where it counts, if you get

 what I mean (I may have blocked certain memories though).  When the

 car doesn't fit where you thought it might, those nice wide 5 point

 harnesses make it a bearable experience.

Ah, a kindred spirit!  BTDT (and had the bruises too).  Which brings me 
	


to my favorite pet peeve of aviation belts.  Your race car shoulder 

belts were attached way up above the level of your shoulders.  Most 

aircraft shoulder belts terminate below the shoulder level ..... and 

some like my little Grumman ..... down below your butt!  This causes 

severe spinal compression during sudden deceleration.  Not a good thing. 

  The RV-10 does good for the front seat people (attached to the cabin 

top), but the back seat people still have the same old problem.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I was in an extremely bad automobile crash when I was 16, I ran a car

 into a bridge, I am here because of a seat belt.  I shattered my

 pelvis and ankle in addition to a laundry list of other injuries like

 third degree burns, I spent six months in a wheel chair.  The seat

 was ripped out of the car by the impact, fire consumed the car, and a

 friendly truck driver pulled me from the burning car to save my life.

 Lots of things went right, starting with a properly functioning seat

 belt.

Using belts has always been a good thing.  Glad things went right.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have heard the argument that some don't plan to survive the crash

 anyway, so the seat belt is a formality.

It usually happens that way.  But not always.
	


   Like everything we do we

 	  Quote: 	
		   assume certain risk, hopefully we have made the right decisions and

 these risks are always out of our control.  I will accept the risks

 of flying, but I will do everything in my control to provide safety,

 so when it goes wrong, I have the deck stacked as best as I can.

I was at a fly-in in Crystal River, FL, when a big to-do was made over 
	


two gentlemen.  They were walking around in almost full body casts. 

They could walk, but just barely.  They were in a Bonanza that didn't 

clear the trees at the end of the runway.  The ensuing deceleration put 

their upper torsos into the instrument panel.  Way into the instrument 

panel.  The buckling of the instrument panel absorbed enough of the 

energy to allow them to survive, but the shoulder harnesses caused 

multiple spinal injuries.  Don't know what happened to them in their 

recovery.  It was a sobering example to me ..... pay particular 

attention to DA, runway length, and the performance of your airplane.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 We added 5 point harnesses to the front seats and kept the 5 point in

 the rear seat.

 

 Please don't take this as soap boxing, just sharing my real life

 experiences so others can learn from it instead of having to learn it

 on your own the hard way.

Jason, thank you for your post.  It's the varied points of view on this 
	


list that makes us think.  I think I'll leave my crotch point intact 

.... I was going to remove it ...... I can tape some foam over it when 

I'm working there.  I'll have to think about the front seater point.  Do 

you have pictures of where you attached the front crotch strap???

Linn .... working on the doors.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying 4 Partner Build #40617 Wayne Elsner 

 Kyle Hokel Tony Kolar Jason Kreidler

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 47797#247797

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 06/12/09 05:55:00

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Airplanes are safer. Not as may things to hit. 



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Jason, thanks for a little perspective on why they are of value.  The issue should be the poor design of the attachment of the web.  Many of us can find a way to improve the mounting without eliminating the belt.

  

 It was too bad so many answered early that they just cut the safety feature out.  But then that is the value of an experiment.

  



  John Cox



 

  From: jkreidler

Sent: Fri 6/12/2009 6:20 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RV10-List: Re: rear seat crotch strap attachment

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>



The most important function the submarine strap serves (in my opinion) is to keep the lap belt position properly low across your pelvis.  The standard shoulder belts supplied are pulled tight by the occupant, when this is done it can pull the lap belt up onto your stomach, which is bad.  The inertia reel helps solve this....



I have used seat belts on several occasions, I wear them all the time.  I can say from my racing past, actually from my race car crashing past, that I have walked away with bruised hips, shoulders, chest, and ribs.  I have never felt it where it counts, if you get what I mean (I may have blocked certain memories though).  When the car doesn't fit where you thought it might, those nice wide 5 point harnesses make it a bearable experience.



I was in an extremely bad automobile crash when I was 16, I ran a car into a bridge, I am here because of a seat belt.  I shattered my pelvis and ankle in addition to a laundry list of other injuries like third degree burns, I spent six months in a wheel chair.  The seat was ripped out of the car by the impact, fire consumed the car, and a friendly truck driver pulled me from the burning car to save my life.  Lots of things went right, starting with a properly functioning seat belt.



I have heard the argument that some don't plan to survive the crash anyway, so the seat belt is a formality.  Like everything we do we assume certain risk, hopefully we have made the right decisions and these risks are always out of our control.  I will accept the risks of flying, but I will do everything in my control to provide safety, so when it goes wrong, I have the deck stacked as best as I can.



We added 5 point harnesses to the front seats and kept the 5 point in the rear seat.



Please don't take this as soap boxing, just sharing my real life experiences so others can learn from it instead of having to learn it on your own the hard way.



Jason Kreidler

N44YH - Flying

4 Partner Build #40617

Wayne Elsner

Kyle Hokel

Tony Kolar

Jason Kreidler





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247797#247797





[b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

One additional thought.... There are now aftermarket airbag

systems that can be added to some planes.  That may be something

worth looking into for the real risk averse.  I would bet that

having those in the front seatbacks would help survivability

very well for the rear seat passengers.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 That's quite the life changing experience!  Don't get me wrong,

 if someone wants 5 point harnesses, that's great, go ahead

 and add them, and like you...ad them to the front too while

 you're at it.  Can't hurt.  I didn't want 5 points, and

 feel the 4 point ones met my needs just perfectly.  (They're

 way better than the 3 point ones in most planes...and WAY WAY

 better than only 2 point harnesses)  I just wanted to point out

 in my previous posting that the 4 points adjust well and

 we have no problem properly positioning the belts for

 the adults or kids in the plane.   To me, if there's a weak

 link anywhere it's the bolt through the cabin top.

 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 

 

 jkreidler wrote:

> 

> <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>

>

> The most important function the submarine strap serves (in my

> opinion) is to keep the lap belt position properly low across your

> pelvis.  The standard shoulder belts supplied are pulled tight by the

> occupant, when this is done it can pull the lap belt up onto your

> stomach, which is bad.  The inertia reel helps solve this....

>

> I have used seat belts on several occasions, I wear them all the

> time.  I can say from my racing past, actually from my race car

> crashing past, that I have walked away with bruised hips, shoulders,

> chest, and ribs.  I have never felt it where it counts, if you get

> what I mean (I may have blocked certain memories though).  When the

> car doesn't fit where you thought it might, those nice wide 5 point

> harnesses make it a bearable experience.

>

> I was in an extremely bad automobile crash when I was 16, I ran a car

> into a bridge, I am here because of a seat belt.  I shattered my

> pelvis and ankle in addition to a laundry list of other injuries like

> third degree burns, I spent six months in a wheel chair.  The seat

> was ripped out of the car by the impact, fire consumed the car, and a

> friendly truck driver pulled me from the burning car to save my life.

> Lots of things went right, starting with a properly functioning seat

> belt.

>

> I have heard the argument that some don't plan to survive the crash

> anyway, so the seat belt is a formality.  Like everything we do we

> assume certain risk, hopefully we have made the right decisions and

> these risks are always out of our control.  I will accept the risks

> of flying, but I will do everything in my control to provide safety,

> so when it goes wrong, I have the deck stacked as best as I can.

>

> We added 5 point harnesses to the front seats and kept the 5 point in

> the rear seat.

>

> Please don't take this as soap boxing, just sharing my real life

> experiences so others can learn from it instead of having to learn it

> on your own the hard way.

>

> Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying 4 Partner Build #40617 Wayne Elsner Kyle 

> Hokel Tony Kolar Jason Kreidler

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 47797#247797

>

>

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