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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Few items:

What I don't get about the inertia straps is I find great comfort in all

forms of turbulence to really tighten down the straps and not move

independent of the seat & airframe. I assume that inertia reels cannot

hold one tightly in the seat when the random jostling occurs. I know

they prevent the BIG lunge forward but I assume not all the small

movement including the minor up & down.



I have used 5 point a fair amount in my flying and don't give them a

second thought one connected. Like previously stated they do help

maintain the proper position of the lap belt as one tightens the

shoulder straps.



My current concern is how the split in the shoulder straps wraps around

the front seat headrest (on my home made Cam Release seat belts). It

almost seams like the Y section of the belt needs a physical spreader

provide width to clear the headrest and move the belt webbing away from

my neck.



Does anyone else have the issue of the belts hitting the headrest and

also wearing on their neck? Does anyone absolutely LOVE their seatbelt

arrangements (other than the inertia reel builders)?



BTW I love the Cam Release style buckle. 



Robin

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

My understanding is that the crotch straps are only in the back seat because of the difference in seating position.  The back seaters tend to recline quite a bit more than the front, and in a crash would slip out from under the lap belts ("submarining" I guess is the term).  Since the fronts tend to sit up straighter, more like in a chair, the crotch strap isn't as necessary.  Not that adding one wouldn't help in some cases, but the seating position itself reduces the need.

 

Another thing I like about the crotch straps in back is that they tend to hold my kids in place (6 and 9) better than without.  Their seating position is even more reclined.  They can practically wriggle out from under the belts even in normal conditions.

 

Last thing, I was kind of concerned about the bolt in the roof too, but at some point it occured to me that the bolt would be mostly in shear, not tension.  So instead of ripping the head through the fiberglass, wouldn't it mostly be getting dragged through the sandwich structure?

 

Dave



On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 

 That's quite the life changing experience!  Don't get me wrong,

 if someone wants 5 point harnesses, that's great, go ahead

 and add them, and like you...ad them to the front too while

 you're at it.  Can't hurt.  I didn't want 5 points, and

 feel the 4 point ones met my needs just perfectly.  (They're

 way better than the 3 point ones in most planes...and WAY WAY

 better than only 2 point harnesses)  I just wanted to point out

 in my previous posting that the 4 points adjust well and

 we have no problem properly positioning the belts for

 the adults or kids in the plane.   To me, if there's a weak

 link anywhere it's the bolt through the cabin top.

 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 

 

 jkreidler wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler"

 <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)>

 

 The most important function the submarine strap serves (in my

 opinion) is to keep the lap belt position properly low across your

 pelvis.  The standard shoulder belts supplied are pulled tight by the

 occupant, when this is done it can pull the lap belt up onto your

 stomach, which is bad.  The inertia reel helps solve this....

 

 I have used seat belts on several occasions, I wear them all the

 time.  I can say from my racing past, actually from my race car

 crashing past, that I have walked away with bruised hips, shoulders,

 chest, and ribs.  I have never felt it where it counts, if you get

 what I mean (I may have blocked certain memories though).  When the

 car doesn't fit where you thought it might, those nice wide 5 point

 harnesses make it a bearable experience.

 

 I was in an extremely bad automobile crash when I was 16, I ran a car

 into a bridge, I am here because of a seat belt.  I shattered my

 pelvis and ankle in addition to a laundry list of other injuries like

 third degree burns, I spent six months in a wheel chair.  The seat

 was ripped out of the car by the impact, fire consumed the car, and a

 friendly truck driver pulled me from the burning car to save my life.

 Lots of things went right, starting with a properly functioning seat

 belt.

 

 I have heard the argument that some don't plan to survive the crash

 anyway, so the seat belt is a formality.  Like everything we do we

 assume certain risk, hopefully we have made the right decisions and

 these risks are always out of our control.  I will accept the risks

 of flying, but I will do everything in my control to provide safety,

 so when it goes wrong, I have the deck stacked as best as I can.

 

 We added 5 point harnesses to the front seats and kept the 5 point in

 the rear seat.

 

 Please don't take this as soap boxing, just sharing my real life

 experiences so others can learn from it instead of having to learn it

 on your own the hard way.

 

 Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying 4 Partner Build #40617 Wayne Elsner Kyle Hokel Tony Kolar Jason Kreidler

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247797#247797

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Robin, I love my seatbelt arrangements......but I do have inertia reels. The

only draw back is when I put somebody tall in the back seat.  Their head can

hit the inertia reel for the front seat passenger. 



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

From one of the inertia reel guys, I wouldn't trade mine for anything.



Front and rear mounted securely through the top using 4 bolts holding  

plate (and glassed in as well) and reels mount to the plates.



grumpy

do not archive



On Jun 12, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Robin Marks wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Few items:

 What I don't get about the inertia straps is I find great comfort in  

 all

 forms of turbulence to really tighten down the straps and not move

 independent of the seat & airframe. I assume that inertia reels cannot

 hold one tightly in the seat when the random jostling occurs. I know

 they prevent the BIG lunge forward but I assume not all the small

 movement including the minor up & down.



 I have used 5 point a fair amount in my flying and don't give them a

 second thought one connected. Like previously stated they do help

 maintain the proper position of the lap belt as one tightens the

 shoulder straps.



 My current concern is how the split in the shoulder straps wraps  

 around

 the front seat headrest (on my home made Cam Release seat belts). It

 almost seams like the Y section of the belt needs a physical spreader

 provide width to clear the headrest and move the belt webbing away  

 from

 my neck.



 Does anyone else have the issue of the belts hitting the headrest and

 also wearing on their neck? Does anyone absolutely LOVE their seatbelt

 arrangements (other than the inertia reel builders)?



 BTW I love the Cam Release style buckle.



 Robin

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I want to make a plug here for David McNeill who was the first in my

aging memory, to expand the safety in the cockpit with his presentation

on belt anchor points, materials, AMSAFE products and mount angles over

the top of the seats.



I fly in five point, four point, three, two and yes NONE.  I love a five

point with the buckle cam operated from the interior side to assist

extraction (without fumbling with an outboard mounted buckle).  I do not

like the buckle connected to the Fifth point Crotch.  There are lots of

choices here and in the statistically unlikely occurrence that they are

needed, where they mount and how they fit creates a whole new

"Tomorrow".



When transitioning from the Dash 8/400 to the CRJ-700 at work,  All

crewmembers must now taxi with shoulder harness attached.  Because I

demonstrated how easy you can send the unsuspecting sole into or beyond

the instrument panel on application of sensitive brakes at really slow

taxi speeds.  I can't demo the same technique with the RV-10 but the

deceleration forces are just waiting for the chance to bite.



Choose wisely.



John



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I hear you there Robin.   I don't have any problem with the

inertials, but I do find comfort in the stock setup.  Every

since (and John Cox knows this), the "encounter" I had with

a good sized bump in the Van's plane, I've been much more diligent

when flying in turbulence or anytime I descend into the cloud

layer out of smooth air.  I crank those belts tight, and I'm

glad that I have belts that don't have any give.  My head easily

hits the ceiling in a nasty bump and I don't like that.  So

I feel secure in the standard belts.  The only time I miss

an inertial system is when I constantly forget to grab my headset

from the hangers before I start the plane.  I have to loosen

a shoulder belt so I can lean forward.  But, once I'm in the

air, I leave them on and am happy to have them.  I do, as you

noticed, get a little rub from the belt edge due to the "Y"

connection behind the seat.  It doesn't get me often, but when

it bugs me I pull my shirt collar up between the belt and my

neck and then it's all ok.  It hasn't bothered me enough

to do things like add pads to the web straps, but I know that

some people do that.  So I guess I really like what came

as stock, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.  But, I also

can see why the people who have inertials would like those

too.  It's a true personal preference item.  I just like to

keep mine cranked in in the bumps.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Few items:

 What I don't get about the inertia straps is I find great comfort in all

 forms of turbulence to really tighten down the straps and not move

 independent of the seat & airframe. I assume that inertia reels cannot

 hold one tightly in the seat when the random jostling occurs. I know

 they prevent the BIG lunge forward but I assume not all the small

 movement including the minor up & down.

 

 I have used 5 point a fair amount in my flying and don't give them a

 second thought one connected. Like previously stated they do help

 maintain the proper position of the lap belt as one tightens the

 shoulder straps.

 

 My current concern is how the split in the shoulder straps wraps around

 the front seat headrest (on my home made Cam Release seat belts). It

 almost seams like the Y section of the belt needs a physical spreader

 provide width to clear the headrest and move the belt webbing away from

 my neck.

 

 Does anyone else have the issue of the belts hitting the headrest and

 also wearing on their neck? Does anyone absolutely LOVE their seatbelt

 arrangements (other than the inertia reel builders)?

 

 BTW I love the Cam Release style buckle. 

 

 Robin

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

I’ve implemented a somewhat different method of keeping the lap belt from riding up…  It’s called a “gut” J.  Works for me… now what to do about the passengers???  

   

Do not archive  

   

-Ben Westfall  

         

  

  

 David Saylor wrote:

 

   

My understanding is that the crotch straps are only in the back seat because of the difference in seating position.  The back seaters tend to recline quite a bit more than the front, and in a crash would slip out from under the lap belts ("submarining" I guess is the term).  Since the fronts tend to sit up straighter, more like in a chair, the crotch strap isn't as necessary.  Not that adding one wouldn't help in some cases, but the seating position itself reduces the need.

 

 Another thing I like about the crotch straps in back is that they tend to hold my kids in place (6 and 9) better than without.  Their seating position is even more reclined.  They can practically wriggle out from under the belts even in normal conditions.

 

 Last thing, I was kind of concerned about the bolt in the roof too, but at some point it occured to me that the bolt would be mostly in shear, not tension.  So instead of ripping the head through the fiberglass, wouldn't it mostly be getting dragged through the sandwich structure?

 

 Dave  

       [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

snip
	


   I do, as you

 	  Quote: 	
		   noticed, get a little rub from the belt edge due to the "Y"

 connection behind the seat.  It doesn't get me often, but when

 it bugs me I pull my shirt collar up between the belt and my

 neck and then it's all ok.  It hasn't bothered me enough

 to do things like add pads to the web straps, but I know that

 some people do that.  

Tim, I added the seat belt pads (from Wal-Mart, I think) to my Pitts 
	


shoulder belts because of the neck rub thingy.  I wouldn't be without 

them now.

Linn

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Tim,

Air bags may be coming for aircraft, but I don't think they are here just yet. Looking at all the risks, I think fire is the one we really don't want happening. Van put the 5-point harness as an option in the back, and I'm going with it (costs more). I think he didn't put one in the front because it's complicated: moving seat and not much space to attach it to because the stick has to have priority. Personally I like 5-point harnesses because they keep the seat belt down below my growing beer belly.

For the home-grown entrepreneurs out there, a package set for the '10 would be a viable option. I always loved the Pacific Scientific 5-point rotary belt with the top thumb-latch disconnect for just the shoulder harnesses (Airline stuff). Of course, they would have to come in at least 15 color options   



John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Check just below the throttle quad. Note the red handle.



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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Since I made my own seat belts (for nearly nothing) I have been

contemplating a carbon fiber (or wood) dowel encased in nylon webbing

and sewn in forward of the Y to force the belts open wider than my

headrest (and neck). I don't really see an issue with this except the

thought of what looks like two Water Ski tow ropes hanging from my cabin

top.

Still under consideration...

Robin

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: Re: rear seat crotch strap attachment

 	  robin1(at)mrmoisture.com wrote: 	
		  Since I made my own seat belts (for nearly nothing) I have been

contemplating a carbon fiber (or wood) dowel encased in nylon webbing

and sewn in forward of the Y to force the belts open wider than my

headrest (and neck). I don't really see an issue with this except the

thought of what looks like two Water Ski tow ropes hanging from my cabin

top.

Still under consideration...

Robin 	




Robin,

How did you do the sewing? Do you have an industrial sewing machine?

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

John,  

      I have access to an industrial sewing machine but I initially hand sewed them to tack in place. The webbing is rather course and could be sewn easily. Once tacked in place I dry fit them in the plane and then used a regular sewing machine. it was a snap. If you want a pro to sew it try tacking like I did and take it to an upholstery shop to have them do it while you wait for $20.00.  

      For the DIYer’s out there one can get a 2” or 3” wide Rotary Cam Release 4 or 5 point seatbelt for under $40.00 delivered from ebay. I think I paid under $30.00 delivered for each of mine. Look up “Cam Seat belt” on ebay. Please note you can make a perfectly good and safe seatbelt set but these are obviously not the quality of a $400-600 Hooker Harness belt.   

      Other observations. I suggest you but one or two sets to start rather than all 4 sets before one is sure you want to go that way. Additionally there are other belt companies out there that offer “Y” sewn belts already:  

http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/wescoperformance_2053_292106   

http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/racingbelts.html#cam-lock-harness  

   

   

Good luck,  

Robin  

   

   

   

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: rear seat crotch strap attachment

Now that's a true D-I-Y guy!  I'm impressed, Robin...good job!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   John,

 

       I have access to an industrial sewing machine but I initially hand 

 sewed them to tack in place. The webbing is rather course and could be 

 sewn easily. Once tacked in place I dry fit them in the plane and then 

 used a regular sewing machine. it was a snap. If you want a pro to sew 

 it try tacking like I did and take it to an upholstery shop to have them 

 do it while you wait for $20.00.

 

       For the DIYer’s out there one can get a 2” or 3” wide Rotary Cam 

 Release 4 or 5 point seatbelt for under $40.00 delivered from ebay. I 

 think I paid under $30.00 delivered for each of mine. Look up “Cam Seat 

 belt” on ebay. Please note you can make a perfectly good and safe 

 seatbelt set but these are obviously not the quality of a $400-600 

 Hooker Harness belt.

 

       Other observations. I suggest you but one or two sets to start 

 rather than all 4 sets before one is sure you want to go that way. 

 Additionally there are other belt companies out there that offer “Y” 

 sewn belts already:

 

 http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/wescoperformance_2053_292106

 

 http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/racingbelts.html#cam-lock-harness

 

  

 

  

 

 Good luck,

 

 Robin

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

 http://209.200.64.237/images/auto/7505-2.jpghttp://209.200.64.237/images/auto/7477.jpg

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