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dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I installed my flaps, ailerons, and wingtips with the wings in the  

cradle, versus mounted on the airplane. It was pretty simple and my  

wife and I did it without any problems. Everything came out lined up  

nicely on our airplane. We put the flaps all the way up, clamped the  

ailerons to the flaps, and then carefully fit and drilled the  

wingtips. I remember some threads from a couple of years ago  

discussing the importance of having someone hold the wingtip in  

position while carefully drilling the holes. I seem to remember that  

it was pretty important to make sure the tip was pushed fully forward  

into the leading edge of the wing. The caution about making sure the  

elevator is neutral, if installing after the controls are hooked up,  

is an important one. While putting the flight controls back on after  

paint, we did some real head scratching trying to figure out why the  

flap/aileron alignment was messed up. Turned out to be the elevator  

in the full down position.



another $.02 worth



David Maib

40559



On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Seano wrote:






Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons  

and wingtips to that position.

Rene, I would still like to see your RV.  I am out of OGD a lot in  

the citation.  My tail number is N458MT.

If you see me out there stop by.  I always use Kemp Jet on the south  

side.



Sean

---

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: -3 degrees flaps

 	  Quote: 	
		  This brings up another question. Has anybody else been installing 

their wingtips with hinges instead of the screws? I remember it was 

in an RVAtor a couple of years ago. It really works well and makes 

the wingtip a TON easier to take off and put back on. 	




Jesse,

I remember seeing that. You basically use piano hinge just like most folks do on the cowling.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

ScooterF15

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Hi Tim,

  

 I'll jump in here to muddy up the waters... and Linn this is probably why John suggested to take this off list. 

  

 To answer your question, I'll say, for cruise climb in general, you'll typically be better off at the -3 degree setting when climbing at and above 10,000'. 

  

 It isn't the lift available for the wing that is important, it's really the lift/drag (L/D) that you want to minimize to increase your rate of climb. The lift doesn't change: if your airplane weighs 2500 lbs then you need 2500 lbs of lift for 1 g unaccelerated flight. So that means that you want to minimize the drag. Cruising or cruise/climbing at 160 KTAS (137.5 KIAS) at 10,000' with a 2500 lb RV-10 requires a coefficient of lift (cl) of 0.276. I would guess the -3 flapped wing has a maximum cl of around 1.0 and the 0 degree around 1.1. So you see that 0.276 is a low cl, either the wing with 0 flap or -3 degree flaps will have no problem generating a that cl. However, most likely, the -3 degree flapped wing will produce that 0.276 cl with a lower coefficient of drag (cd) than the 0 degree wing would. That means a higher L/D, and less drag on the aircraft which results in more power available for climb and, thus, a higher rate of climb.

   

 This still is true if you were to slow to, say 122 KTAS (105 KIAS) for the climb. The cl required there is still only 0.45. It isn't until you start to slow down enough to approach the max cl (i.e. stall) of the -3 flapped airfoil that it may be beneficial to lower the flaps to some other setting (this may also occur at extremely high altitudes).

   

 -Jim

 N312JE



 On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. 

 

When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was

intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift

out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.

So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very

 slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb

rate by going back to zero.  Now, you could also

get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10

generally climbs so well that it may be just as

practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing

 out.



Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,

or not?  



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD





  

 John Cumins wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cumins" <jcumins(at)jcis.net (jcumins(at)jcis.net)>

 

Ok here comes my 2 cents worth.  Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to

educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees.  As it has

been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.



 If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the

trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position.  With

the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3

 degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap. 

So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as

designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference.  Thus higher

lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.

 The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the

aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift

at slower speeds.  Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.

 But faster cruise speed.   

The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.

All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area

making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take

 off flaps position.  This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is

about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-

lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of

 flap movement.



I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if

they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.



Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,  

And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.

 



John Cumins

40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off. 



--

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

That's right, although we use the 3 forward screws on top and bottom  

because the hinge doesn't bend as well with the sharper curve.  Then  

we leave the pins long and use a bracket on the little metal rib on  

the trailing edge of the wingtip to hold the pins in place.  The pins  

can be bent and a hinge eyelet used to hold them in place, or you can  

make a little metal piece about 1/8 - 3/16 thick and drill a hole for  

the hinge pin to slide in, then the bracket can be screwed onto the  

rib.  This way you can easily put a drill on the hinge pin to spin it  

while sliding it in, which is more of a big deal initially until any  

burs or sharp edges inside the hinge eyelets are removed by the pin.   

A little grease doesn't hurt either.  We use the wingtip itself (the  

part that would receive the nutplates, which will be removed if using  

the hinge method) as a shim for the inboard half of the hinge.  The  

trick is getting all of the rivet holed drilled in the wingtip before  

cutting the "shim" off, then making the cut so the material removed  

would be just inboard of the end of the wing skin, so there is no gap  

left.  If done carefully, it can give a very nice tight and clean fit  

between the wingtip and the wing skin.

The nicest part of this method, IMHO, is the wingtips can be removed  

or reinstalled in about 3 minutes, versus about 30 minutes with all of  

the screws.  Taking it off the normal way is not that bad if using a  

drill, but putting it on is a pain because the wingtip is flexible  

enough that it can be hard to get it close enough to the skin to get  

the screws to grab all the way around.

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Jul 2, 2009, at 3:21 PM, johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

> This brings up another question. Has anybody else been installing

> their wingtips with hinges instead of the screws? I remember it was

> in an RVAtor a couple of years ago. It really works well and makes

> the wingtip a TON easier to take off and put back on.

 Jesse,

 I remember seeing that. You basically use piano hinge just like most  

 folks do on the cowling.

 John

 --------

 #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.

 N711JG reserved

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 51200#251200

rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I still don't understand how the wingtips can be "aligned."  When I pushed mine all the way forward, it wasn't possible to twist them up or down--they fit in snugly.

  

 -Rob

 On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:16 PM, David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)>

I installed my flaps, ailerons, and wingtips with the wings in the cradle, versus mounted on the airplane. It was pretty simple and my wife and I did it without any problems. Everything came out lined up nicely on our airplane. We put the flaps all the way up, clamped the ailerons to the flaps, and then carefully fit and drilled the wingtips. I remember some threads from a couple of years ago discussing the importance of having someone hold the wingtip in position while carefully drilling the holes. I seem to remember that it was pretty important to make sure the tip was pushed fully forward into the leading edge of the wing. The caution about making sure the elevator is neutral, if installing after the controls are hooked up, is an important one. While putting the flight controls back on after paint, we did some real head scratching trying to figure out why the flap/aileron alignment was messed up. Turned out to be the elevator in the full down position.

 

another $.02 worth



David Maib

40559  



On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Seano wrote:



--> RV10-List message posted by: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)>

 

Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons and wingtips to that position.

Rene, I would still like to see your RV.  I am out of OGD a lot in the citation.  My tail number is N458MT.

 If you see me out there stop by.  I always use Kemp Jet on the south side.



Sean

---

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Jim  

   

Wow I was not going to get into that much detail but I do agree with you.   

   

John G. Cumins  

President  

   

JC'S Interactive Systems  

2499 B1 Martin Rd  

Fairfield Ca 94533  

707-425-7100  

707-425-7576 Fax  

   

Your Total Technology Solution Provider    

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James McGrew

 Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:53 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: -3 degrees flaps  

  

     

Hi Tim,  

    

   

    

I'll jump in here to muddy up the waters... and Linn this is probably why John suggested to take this off list.   

    

   

    

To answer your question, I'll say, for cruise climb in general, you'll typically be better off at the -3 degree setting when climbing at and above 10,000'.   

    

   

    

It isn't the lift available for the wing that is important, it's really the lift/drag (L/D) that you want to minimize to increase your rate of climb. The lift doesn't change: if your airplane weighs 2500 lbs then you need 2500 lbs of lift for 1 g unaccelerated flight. So that means that you want to minimize the drag. Cruising or cruise/climbing at 160 KTAS (137.5 KIAS) at 10,000' with a 2500 lb RV-10 requires a coefficient of lift (cl) of 0.276. I would guess the -3 flapped wing has a maximum cl of around 1.0 and the 0 degree around 1.1. So you see that 0.276 is a low cl, either the wing with 0 flap or -3 degree flaps will have no problem generating a that cl. However, most likely, the -3 degree flapped wing will produce that 0.276 cl with a lower coefficient of drag (cd) than the 0 degree wing would. That means a higher L/D, and less drag on the aircraft which results in more power available for climb and, thus, a higher rate of climb.  

    

   

    

This still is true if you were to slow to, say 122 KTAS (105 KIAS) for the climb. The cl required there is still only 0.45. It isn't until you start to slow down enough to approach the max cl (i.e. stall) of the -3 flapped airfoil that it may be beneficial to lower the flaps to some other setting (this may also occur at extremely high altitudes).  

    

   

    

-Jim  

    

N312JE  

    

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:    

--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>  

  

I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. 

 

 When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was

 intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift

 out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.

 So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very

 slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb

 rate by going back to zero.  Now, you could also

 get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10

 generally climbs so well that it may be just as

 practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing

 out.

 

 Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,

 or not?     



 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 

 

   

      

John Cumins wrote:  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cumins" <jcumins(at)jcis.net (jcumins(at)jcis.net)>

 

 Ok here comes my 2 cents worth.  Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to

 educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees.  As it has

 been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.

 

 If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the

 trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position.  With

 the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3

 degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap. 

 So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as

 designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference.  Thus higher

 lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.

 The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the

 aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift

 at slower speeds.  Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.

 But faster cruise speed.   

 The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.

 All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area

 making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take

 off flaps position.  This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is

 about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-

 lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of

 flap movement.

 

 I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if

 they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.

 

 Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,  

 And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.

 

 

 John Cumins

 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off. 

 

 --

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Tim



You are totally right.  The 0 Degree position has more lift then the -3

degree setting.



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider



--

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I will be glad to keep them on the list.



John  Cumins



--

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I think maybe some people, early on, match drilled the holes in the wingtip without insuring that the wingtip was solidly in position, as you describe. It would be a bit difficult to hold the wingtip perfectly in position to drill without an extra set of hands. I looked back at some construction photo's and realized that we drilled the wingtips on a table instead of in the cradle. We used a piece of 3/4 aluminum angle to clamp the aileron to the flap. Here are a couple of photo's.



[img]cid:B455C6D0-CFC7-4CE0-B73F-6DAB7009BEB5(at)local[/img][img]cid:9AB06093-2083-4FA9-AF4E-177F247E4C90(at)local[/img]

David Maib

40559



 



 



On Jul 2, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:

I still don't understand how the wingtips can be "aligned."  When I pushed mine all the way forward, it wasn't possible to twist them up or down--they fit in snugly.

  

 -Rob

 On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:16 PM, David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)> wrote:

 [quote]

IMG_0132.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

110.63 KB

Viewed:

8251 Time(s)

IMG_0128.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

110.99 KB

Viewed:

8251 Time(s)

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane from floating 1000 foot past the numbers?? 



Rick Sked

N246RS

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I still haven't figured this one out.  What speed do you fly on short  

final?



do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:40 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:



[quote] 



 Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are  

 installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane  

 from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??



 Rick Sked

 N246RS

 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



 --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Speed control. 



--

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

We had a Navy pilot provide CAP folk with a method for landing on short runways.during cruise flight, slow down, lower the flaps and determine what the indicated stall speed was (Just nibble at it).  Round the number up to the nearest 5 knots and then add 10%.So if you saw 58 knots stall, round up to 60, add 10% to get 66.  Fly the approach at that speed.When we rounded out over the numbers the bird was done flying and did not float.  It was easy to land on 2000 foot runways.Try this with the -10.  You will get some numbers that will amaze you.I don't normally fly like this, but to see it work was really cool.What I found for my -10 was I could fly 65 knot finals and make the first turnoff without much braking.  What I normally fly is 82 on the approach, 78 over the end of the runway and I get stall warning about 5 feet up and touchdown soon after.  Your airplane may be different.All speeds in knots.Jim CN312F   [quote][b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I get that David..  Speeds are right on just seems to carry further than. I thought.....

---

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I routinely cross the fence around 70 kts.  If its gusty, add 5.

Cross check with my AOA, which is always better than airspeed.....

grumpy

N184JM

On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:

[quote] 

 I still haven't figured this one out.  What speed do you fly on  

 short final?

 do not archive

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:40 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:

> 

>

> Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are  

> installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane  

> from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??

>

> Rick Sked

> N246RS

> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

>

> --

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Rick, what speeds are you flying.  I get the best results when I fly mid

70's on final and 70 or below over the threshold.  I am at 4500 feet so

ground speed is a little higher.  If I come in any faster than that, it will

float.  But, I normally do fly faster than that......I like the extra speed

margin......



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">   Great info...the AOA makes this pretty easy....pitch up, keep the RPMs up, throttle to control decent with positive pitch held just need to call the ball....short field "style" seems the best approach...65 knots on final is our working best number....but then again the DA has been between 4500 to 5300.... go figure

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From:  "Jim" 

Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:45:27 -0400 (EDT)

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: RV10-List: -3 degrees flaps

We had a Navy pilot provide CAP folk with a method for landing on short runways.during cruise flight, slow down, lower the flaps and determine what the indicated stall speed was (Just nibble at it).  Round the number up to the nearest 5 knots and then add 10%.So if you saw 58 knots stall, round up to 60, add 10% to get 66.  Fly the approach at that speed.When we rounded out over the numbers the bird was done flying and did not float.  It was easy to land on 2000 foot runways.Try this with the -10.  You will get some numbers that will amaze you.I don't normally fly like this, but to see it work was really cool.What I found for my -10 was I could fly 65 knot finals and make the first turnoff without much braking.  What I normally fly is 82 on the approach, 78 over the end of the runway and I get stall warning about 5 feet up and touchdown soon after.  Your airplane may be different.All speeds in knots.Jim CN312F   	  Quote: 	
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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Same here but no AOA.  65 into the short grass strips.

Tim



On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 I routinely cross the fence around 70 kts.  If its gusty, add 5.



 Cross check with my AOA, which is always better than airspeed.....



 grumpy

 N184JM



 On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:



> 

> <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

>

> I still haven't figured this one out.  What speed do you fly on  

> short final?

>

> do not archive

>

> Jesse Saint

> Saint Aviation, Inc.

> jesse(at)saintaviation.com

> Cell: 352-427-0285

> Fax: 815-377-3694

>

> On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:40 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Don't mount the tips till the flap and ailerons are  

>> installed.....what's the best flap position to keep the airplane  

>> from floating 1000 foot past the numbers??

>>

>> Rick Sked

>> N246RS

>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

>>

>> --

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

The good part about the navy based process is that it took into account the current weight of the aircraft.  It also uses the "Indicated" stall speed which took into account the pitot system and indicators.  A single pilot might get a low stall speed while a gross weight airplane would yield a higher number.  It was still fun to do the math and then fly the approach.The -10 is a fun airplane to fly and I know I can slow it down for a short runway.Jim CN312F - 80 hours (Still need to get it painted!)Do Not Archive---------------------------------------------------------------------Great info...the AOA makes this pretty easy....pitch up, keep the RPMs up,throttle to control decent with positive pitch held just need to call theball....short field "style" seems the best approach...65 knots on final isour working best number....but then again the DA has been between 4500 to5300.... go figureSent via BlackBerry by AT&T--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

90 DW 80 base 70 final... Varies with conditions which have been good cept high ambient temps...Las Vegas June July. No surprises there

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

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