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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Gene Z,



It is disappointing to see you put list politics ahead of good information.   You have made two responses, which are clearly aimed in " getting in good with the guys... "   You have also not answered a single question I asked about your tips, you are obviously more afraid of offending someone,  than adding factual information to this thread.  For someone that did a lot of work to change your wingtip design, you sure are anxious to downplay it now, you posts just stink of fear of offending one of these guys.  Are you a brown noser at work also ?  Finally, Gene Z and the rest, trying to turn the wingtip discussion into something about Homer Kolb is just plain stupid.  Don't try to use his recent passing to your advantage, if you have something factual to add to the discussion, then do it, making this about Homer is just wrong and shows your desperation do badmouth a subject when you have no facts.



This reminds me of the VG discussion, where there have been many flight test and reports by many good people here that have been ridiculed and ignored by a few know nothings here.  I have had many private responses by people that have tried VG's and had very positive results, but did not want to post to the list because of the reticule and bashing by a few loud mouth know nothings.  Its to bad that this group is bullied people like this.  



Richard P.



Do you believe everything you read on the net ?   The article you quoted had some basic information, but its opinions and conclusions were garbage.  You, and a couple others here are so desperate to believe that your wingtips wont make any difference that you are willing to ignore 50 years of testing and results by General aviation manufacturers.    



Kolb aircraft did not spend the money to develop its new wingtip for the MK III for nothing.   Enough people are now working on MK III 's with the new wingtips that numbers and flight reports will start to come out, some of you are going to look pretty bad when that happens, pretty short sighted for those saying that wingtips can not be improved.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jimh474(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: Wingtips

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: Wingtips

Jetpilot, Im sorry so to see you're reverting back to your habits of  

a few years ago.

Then you couldn't write anything without calling somebody stupid,  

just plain dumb, etc etc. Now you're back at it! --  here you say, in  

one short post:

you're obviously afraid of offending someone

your posts just stink

a brown noser

just plain stupid

your desperation  to badmouth

you have no facts

know  nothings

loud mouth know nothings

Now, we all know you're an expert; you've let us know that  

repeatedly. But the List isn't about I'm-better-than-you-are; it  

should be a POLITE and beneficial exchange of information.

Please lay off the insults and stick to helpful subjects. We'd all  

appreciate that.

Russ

do not archive



On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:50 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Gene Z,



 It is disappointing to see you put list politics ahead of good  

 information.   You have made two responses, which are clearly aimed  

 in " getting in good with the guys... "   You have also not  

 answered a single question I asked about your tips, you are  

 obviously more afraid of offending someone,  than adding factual  

 information to this thread.  For someone that did a lot of work to  

 change your wingtip design, you sure are anxious to downplay it  

 now, you posts just stink of fear of offending one of these guys.   

 Are you a brown noser at work also ?  Finally, Gene Z and the rest,  

 trying to turn the wingtip discussion into something about Homer  

 Kolb is just plain stupid.  Don't try to use his recent passing to  

 your advantage, if you have something factual to add to the  

 discussion, then do it, making this about Homer is just wrong and  

 shows your desperation do badmouth a subject when you have no facts.



 This reminds me of the VG discussion, where there have been many  

 flight test and reports by many good people here that have been  

 ridiculed and ignored by a few know nothings here.  I have had many  

 private responses by people that have tried VG's and had very  

 positive results, but did not want to post to the list because of  

 the reticule and bashing by a few loud mouth know nothings.  Its to  

 bad that this group is bullied people like this.



 Richard P.



 Do you believe everything you read on the net ?   The article you  

 quoted had some basic information, but its opinions and conclusions  

 were garbage.  You, and a couple others here are so desperate to  

 believe that your wingtips wont make any difference that you are  

 willing to ignore 50 years of testing and results by General  

 aviation manufacturers.



 Kolb aircraft did not spend the money to develop its new wingtip  

 for the MK III for nothing.   Enough people are now working on MK  

 III 's with the new wingtips that numbers and flight reports will  

 start to come out, some of you are going to look pretty bad when  

 that happens, pretty short sighted for those saying that wingtips  

 can not be improved.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 59509#259509

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: Wingtips

Mr. John H C

  

   No problem at all.  Can't fault ya for the memory thing.  I'm afraid my list of 'attributes that aren't as sharp as they used to be' is getting longer all the time.  

   Funny thing.  The older I get C the better I was!!    : )

  

 Have a pleasant day.  

  

 Mike Welch

  

   

 

  From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wingtips

Date: Tue C 25 Aug 2009 07:47:40 -0500



  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}    

  

 Mike W:

  

 My appologies for my very poor memory.

  

 Thanks for reminding me.

  

 I hope I have no offended you.

  

 Evidently it did get noticed or I would not have responded to you.

  

 My mistake was not intentional.

  

 john h

 mkIII - Working on my first cup of coffee.

  

  

  

  John H. C

 

  I beg to differ with you regarding the above statement.  I politely asked you to explain that premise C since I hadn't heard of it before.  I received a response from you C to which I accepted.

 

  Evidently polite discourse doesn't get noticed.  Too bad.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution



	
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. Find out more.  [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

When I read stuff like this , it makes me wonder...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Wingtips 	Reply with quote

Gene Z,



It is disappointing to see you put list politics ahead of good information. You have made two responses, which are clearly aimed in " getting in good with the guys... " You have also not answered a single question I asked about your tips, you are obviously more afraid of offending someone, than adding factual information to this thread. For someone that did a lot of work to change your wingtip design, you sure are anxious to downplay it now, you posts just stink of fear of offending one of these guys. Are you a brown noser at work also ? Finally, Gene Z and the rest, trying to turn the wingtip discussion into something about Homer Kolb is just plain stupid. Don't try to use his recent passing to your advantage, if you have something factual to add to the discussion, then do it, making this about Homer is just wrong and shows your desperation do badmouth a subject when you have no facts.



This reminds me of the VG discussion, where there have been many flight test and reports by many good people here that have been ridiculed and ignored by a few know nothings here. I have had many private responses by people that have tried VG's and had very positive results, but did not want to post to the list because of the reticule and bashing by a few loud mouth know nothings. Its to bad that this group is bullied people like this.



Richard P.



Do you believe everything you read on the net ? The article you quoted had some basic information, but its opinions and conclusions were garbage. You, and a couple others here are so desperate to believe that your wingtips wont make any difference that you are willing to ignore 50 years of testing and results by General aviation manufacturers.



Kolb aircraft did not spend the money to develop its new wingtip for the MK III for nothing. Enough people are now working on MK III 's with the new wingtips that numbers and flight reports will start to come out, some of you are going to look pretty bad when that happens, pretty short sighted for those saying that wingtips can not be improved.



Mike



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



So after much due reflection, I have decided to respond appropriately: (and since I don't spend much time here any more anyway, due to postings such as the above... and therefore can accept being thrown off) (Sorry Matt, I'll accept whatever you think I deserve)



I think we all need to take a deep breath and meditate on some appropriate demotivational posters until our heads clear and our blood pressure returns to normal.



See? Suddenly everything is back in perspective.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

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jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: Wingtips

Mike,

1st you say:

"The type wingtips on the Kolb now are horrible aerodynamically, exactly why 

is

way beyond what I can cover here, but the information is available all over 

the

Internet if you research it."



Then you say,

"Richard P.



Do you believe everything you read on the net ?"



All about wingtip design.



Then I asked:

Mr. Jetpilot, Where are these "Facts" that support your statement that the

Plans built Kolb wingtips  are inferior??



No response yet.



 But you know what? I am not interested in anything else you have to say, so 

from now on, when I post a comment, or a question from the group, please, 

disreguard.

Thank you in advance,



Jim Kmet

Cookeville, TN

MK-3C

(Never Piloted a Jet)



---

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Wingtips

Mike WWell said! -- we're all approaching our "best if used by --"  date

Fair winds,

Russ

Do not archive



On Aug 25, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Mike Welch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Mr. John H,

 

  No problem at all.  Can't fault ya for the memory thing.  I'm afraid my list of 'attributes that aren't as sharp as they used to be' is getting longer all the time.  

  Funny thing.  The older I get, the better I was!!    : )

 

Have a pleasant day.  

 

Mike Welch

 

  

 

From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Wingtips

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:47:40 -0500



 

 

Mike W:

 

My appologies for my very poor memory.

 

Thanks for reminding me.

 

I hope I have no offended you.

 

Evidently it did get noticed or I would not have responded to you.

 

My mistake was not intentional.

 

john h

mkIII - Working on my first cup of coffee.

 

 

 

 John H.,

 

  I beg to differ with you regarding the above statement.  I politely asked you to explain that premise, since I hadn't heard of it before.  I received a response from you, to which I accepted.

 

  Evidently polite discourse doesn't get noticed.  Too bad.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution



	


Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. Find out more. 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Richard Pike,



For claiming to be a preacher, you have continually made every attempt to cause problems and get revenge to settle your vendetta at every opportunity.  I said this the other day, and previously in the past.   Posting offensive pictures just shows what a hypocrite you are.   In the past, you participated in bad behavior as much as anyone, and then claimed to leave the list because you did not like the way it was going.  Now you have posted by far the most objectionable thing ever see on this list.   



Your conduct as a preacher reminds me of fanatical religious sects, who claim to be men of God, while committing acts far worse than the people they are complaining about.  You would fit in with fanatical sects very well.   Because you sure have a need for revenge, and have held a grudge better than just about anyone here.   



And shame on those that would support this type of thing..



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Gene Z,



You posted this yesterday about your Hoernier wingtips:



 	  etzimm(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  

I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. 

I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to my wing tips.

None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability.

Gene Z

	




Then today when it is apparent  that Gene Z's report will not be " Popular " with the little gang, he flip flops faster than a politician:



 	  etzimm(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  



Do I encourage new builders to modify kolb's wing tip to the hoerner 

style? Nope, I DO NOT.



Homer wanted to be as frugal with our money, as he was with his own, 

and he succeeded in giving us a GREAT bank for the buck. 



Thank you Homer ,,,,,,,, may you rest in peace. 

Gene Z 



Etc. Etc....  



	




Quite a flip flop from last nights post.   You are so desperate to get in with this little clique of guys, I hope its worth it for you selling out like you did.  Then again, that kind of behavior, doing anything to get in good with a little group, is usually developed in childhood.  Its probably such second nature to put group politics over truth and fact, that Gene does not even think about it.  I have seen many people like this, and no one respects them.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

I knew this was coming. 

************************************************************



JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006

Posts: 1137	

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Wingtips 	Reply with quote

Richard Pike,



For claiming to be a preacher, you have continually made every attempt to cause problems and get revenge to settle your vendetta at every opportunity. I said this the other day, and previously in the past. Posting offensive pictures just shows what a hypocrite you are. In the past, you participated in bad behavior as much as anyone, and then claimed to leave the list because you did not like the way it was going. Now you have posted by far the most objectionable thing ever see on this list.



Your conduct as a preacher reminds me of fanatical religious sects, who claim to be men of God, while committing acts far worse than the people they are complaining about. You would fit in with fanatical sects very well. Because you sure have a need for revenge, and have held a grudge better than just about anyone here.



And shame on those that would support this type of thing..



Mike

***********************************************************

According to you, Christians are supposed to always keep their mouths shut and to disagree with you is rank heresy. I'll leave it to my congregation and those who know me best to decide if I am a hypocrite or not, feel free to go by the church website and see what I've been doing for the last 12 years and make your decision. 



In the meantime try this on for size.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

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planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

JP-KMA

Last edited by planecrazzzy on Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Jet pilot,

Would you mind posting your resume?  You speak with a lot of authority and confidence on aerodynamic issues.   I have always assumed from your handle that you fly jets.  Other than that, do you have  specific education in aerodynamics and engineering?  Maybe a B.S. degree in aerodynamic theory? A masters in low speed airfoils and wing  design?  Years of computational fluid dynamics and flow modeling experience?



Lots of sizzle...any steak?



This isn't a personal attack, I would really like to know.



Thanks,

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

 	  jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  Mike,

1st you say:

"The type wingtips on the Kolb now are horrible aerodynamically, exactly why 

is

way beyond what I can cover here, but the information is available all over 

the

Internet if you research it."



Then you say,

"Richard P.



Do you believe everything you read on the net ?"



Jim Kmet

	




Jim Kmet,



There is a big difference between doing research on the net about aerodynamic design and theory like I did, and Richard Pikes picking ONE page on the Internet that goes against more than 50 years of accepted theory and aircraft design.  



The idea of researching accepted and credible aircraft theory on the Internet and having the ability to filter out one bad page is something kids learn in grade school now, this concept should have been to difficult for you and Richard Pike to comprehend.  I think you probably did comprehend this, but were so desperate to make it look like I contradicted myself that you posted knowing you were misleading everyone here.



It is very clear you have no interested in truth, honest posting, and information about kolbs.   You are just desperate to be one of this little clique and impress your friends, even if it means posting something you know is wrong.  Being willing to do what you know is wrong in order to fit in with a little group, this is conduct we usually see in street punks.



Mike 



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: Wingtips

Love it. May I use it. Know a few people that would get a smile out of that.

Tony

Downunder



---

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Richard Girard was unfortunately correct. A lot of heat but I have not even seen the wing tip designs and was unable to use the link provided.

I will look through previous posts.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Richard Pike,



Well done!

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  Richard Pike,



Well done! 	




Thom,



You have also flip flopped on this issue just to impress your friends in your little clique.  Two days ago you posted:



 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  I can't say what the Hoerner style wingtips will do for a Kolb wing but can tell you they make a world of difference on a Cherokee 140. Can't tell much difference at high cruise but slow flight lateral control and stability were much improved over the standard Cherokee wingtips. 	




Now you tell Richard Well done for posting bad and false information, and support him in posting some of the worst attacks ever seen on this forum.   Very typical of a looser that just goes along with whatever his friends do, the same type of mentality you see with little street punks and their gangs.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: Wingtips

Kolbers,



Way back NACA was interested in different wing tip configurations.  In a 

1923 study, they compared three different wing profiles using three 

different wing tip rake angles. 



You can see it at:



http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1923/naca-report-140.pdf



In all cases, the lift to drag ratio improved with increased rake angles for 

low angles of attack with increased tip rake angle.



Some of the most up to date work on this subject has been done by 

http://www.winggrid.ch/ where they make a short fat wing act like a high 

aspect ratio wing.  It would be interesting to see a FireFly with this 

wing.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

MikeBigblow: Wrong again. My "Well done" was for the art work Richard did, which had zero, nothing, zilch, nada to do with the subject of wing tips and EVERYTHING to do with you.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Jack,



Could you check the link you posted http://www.winggrid.ch/ ? When I click on it, it does not go to what I think you meant it to go to. I'm very interested in the study.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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