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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  MikeBigblow: Wrong again. My "Well done" was for the art work Richard did, which had zero, nothing, zilch, nada to do with the subject of wing tips and EVERYTHING to do with you. 	




Lets see, you support Richard posting some of the worst things ever seen on this list, and then you criticize me.  Double standards, hypocrisy, call it what you want, what I said about you is true.    You are a the type of loser that does not care about right or wrong, or anything except fitting in with you little gang.  Typical street punk behavior,  you are a very impressive man Thom, I wonder if you teach your kids the same values ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

OK Mike, you win. 



Through your extreme powers of persuasion, I finally must admit that each and EVERYONE else on the list is a scum bag. Only YOU are worth anything at all. I now see the error of my ways. I shall go into rehabilitation, if YOU think that there is any chance at all for me. If you do please advise me where to get the help I need, for it is obvious that I don't have the mental capacity to figure it our for myself. If YOU don't think I have any chance at all, please advise me of that too. That way I will no beyond a shadow of a doubt because the great one has said it is so. Until then, bite me.



El Fin

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: Wingtips

Lets see, you support Richard posting some of the worst things ever seen on 

this list, and then you criticize me.  Double >>



C`mon you guys. Cool it.

One of the drawbacks of e-mail is that you can make an instant response.



I have found over the years that when I am in a real rage over something 

(which is pretty regularly)it is a great thing to write a letter venting my 

spleen on the cause of my anger.



You then keep it until the next morning. Tear it up, write a reasoned reply.



This achieves two things.

One) It gets all your anger out of your system.

two) It enables you to refute, with reasoned argument, whatever has upset 

you.



We are all on the same side here. There are no enemies, there are just 

things on which we disagree. Thats life, no need to go ballistic.



Cheers



Pat  (with peacemaker hat on)

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: Wingtips

At 11:43 AM 8/26/2009, Jack B. Hart wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Way back NACA was interested in different wing tip configurations.  In a

1923 study, they compared three different wing profiles using three

different wing tip rake angles....

In all cases, the lift to drag ratio improved with increased rake angles..


	


Interesting Jack, kind of like the "power tip" mod you made to your 

propeller (as did I on one of my paramotors).



 	  Quote: 	
		  Some of the most up to date work on this subject has been done by

http://www.winggrid.ch/ ...


	


Bad link.



-Dana



--

  New Yorkers like to boast that if you can survive in New York, you can 

survive anywhere. But if you can survive anywhere, why live in New York?

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Wingtips

May be we should ask Matt to start a "bitchlist" where anyone could go to 

vent their spleen.



Just a thought, as it may help to keep the kolblist on target.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Quote:

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Wingtips 	Reply with quote

Kolbers,



Way back NACA was interested in different wing tip configurations. In a

1923 study, they compared three different wing profiles using three

different wing tip rake angles.



You can see it at:



http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1923/naca-report-140.pdf



In all cases, the lift to drag ratio improved with increased rake angles for

low angles of attack with increased tip rake angle.



Some of the most up to date work on this subject has been done by

http://www.winggrid.ch/ where they make a short fat wing act like a high

aspect ratio wing. It would be interesting to see a FireFly with this

wing.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

**********************************************

Really interesting article on that first link Jack, my old Maxair Hummer had that sort of wingtips, don't know how much difference they made in how it flew, but it did fly quite well.

Could you resubmit that second link? It's not working.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: Wingtips

At 07:51 AM 8/26/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Jack,



Could you check the link you posted http://www.winggrid.ch/ ? When I click 

on it, it does not go to what I think you meant it to go to. I'm very 
	


interested in the study.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

--------


	


Thom,



I apologize for shooting a blank.  I copied a jump out of my bookmarks 

without checking it.  After googling I found that most references seem to 

have disappeared from the web.  It may be due to copyright due to the fact 

that NASA partially funded the research.  The jump that I found was:



http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/winggrid6.html



The following is a table reproduced from the jump.  It indicates that if 

this technique is applied to light aircraft there will be a significant 

reduction in induced drag possible.



Aircraft  Aspect  Induced  % wing    Reduction   Total drag 

type      ratio   drag %   span with of induced  reduction

          geom.   of total WING-GRID    drag

   	  	    

DC-9-80   9.62     30%       5%        10% 	  3% by retrofit 

                                                  elliptic wing



Maule     6.2      50%       5%        50% 	  25% by retrofit 

MXT-7-180                                         rectangular wing



UL-plane  6        60%       20%       70%        42% by retrofit 

estimate                                          rectangular wing

 

By the way, this is just not theory, aircraft are flying using this technology.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Jack,



Thanks for the corrected link. That is a very interesting study. It would surely complicate the wing tip construction on a Kolb and make it very un-Kolb looking .



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

 	  jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: 	
		  



UL-plane  6        60%       20%       70%        42% by retrofit 

estimate                                          rectangular wing

 

By the way, this is just not theory, aircraft are flying using this technology.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN 	




Very good post Jack, and exactly what I have been saying about wingtips in this thread all along.   This also proves another point, that Richard Pike, Rick Gerard, and a couple others are so desperate to settle an old score and discredit anything that I post, that they will mislead everyone, and try to suppress good information in order to advance their own personal agenda.   These people that instigated this whole episode and those that jumped on the bandwagon of joining in on a bash fest at the expense of good and true information are nothing but a disservice to the Kolb community. 



Even though these guys are under the illusion that misleading this group, and posting bad information is OK as long as their little gang supports them.   Most people do come here for good information and ways to improve their Kolbs.  I think most readers will think twice before listening to Richard Pike, and a couple of the others for honest and factual aviation advice.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: Wingtips

At 10:42 AM 8/27/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Very good post Jack, and exactly what I have been saying about wingtips in 

this thread all along.   
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Mike,



This list is about floating ideas and discussing their merits.  We can only 

do this by sending these little packets of electrons through the Internet 

medium.  Most on this list float out ideas and realize nor expect that 

everyone is going to agree with them 100% of the time.  Better yet, they do 

not expect that level of acceptance.  What a dull place this list would be 

if everyone agreed with each other.  It is unrealistic to expect that one 

solution will fit all situations and/or condition. Most on the list realize 

that it is the reader who decides what is of value to them.  I assume they 

filter the information as to how it fits their own needs, desires and 

experiences. 



I do not want to be part of a personal "them or us".  This list has to fit 

all of us.  So back off and re join the list as fellow who recognizes others 

on the list that have something to contribute.  If you don't agree with what 

is written, then respond with "have you considered" etc rather than making 

judge mental statements that have nothing to do with Kolb.  Please lighten 

up.  Compose your posts, read them and think "Would my mom or dad be proud 

of this one?"  If not, don't send it.  I am in my early 70's and I still use 

this approach.  It is a way I can vent, not send it, and not make more of a 

fool of my self on the list.



I don't mind you saying it was a good post, but I don't want to have it used 

to bushwhack some one else.  If you want attack, attack ideas and broaden 

the discussion.  Nothing said on the list is going to prevent you from doing 

what you want with your plane or how you fly it.  Give others the same 

freedom.



I have thought about it, and I believe my mom and dad would be proud and so 

I am going to send this to the list.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: Wingtips

Very good Jack.  My pop would be 106 now if he was still walking.

Examples of writing style that offends would be:  "only an idiot  

would...."

"you would have to be a moron...."

You may get the drift.

BB

On 27, Aug 2009, at 7:57 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

 At 10:42 AM 8/27/09 -0700, you wrote:

> 

>

> Very good post Jack, and exactly what I have been saying about  

> wingtips in

 this thread all along.

>

 Mike,

 This list is about floating ideas and discussing their merits.  We  

 can only

 do this by sending these little packets of electrons through the  

 Internet

 medium.  Most on this list float out ideas and realize nor expect that

 everyone is going to agree with them 100% of the time.  Better yet,  

 they do

 not expect that level of acceptance.  What a dull place this list  

 would be

 if everyone agreed with each other.  It is unrealistic to expect  

 that one

 solution will fit all situations and/or condition. Most on the list  

 realize

 that it is the reader who decides what is of value to them.  I  

 assume they

 filter the information as to how it fits their own needs, desires and

 experiences.

 I do not want to be part of a personal "them or us".  This list has  

 to fit

 all of us.  So back off and re join the list as fellow who  

 recognizes others

 on the list that have something to contribute.  If you don't agree  

 with what

 is written, then respond with "have you considered" etc rather than  

 making

 judge mental statements that have nothing to do with Kolb.  Please  

 lighten

 up.  Compose your posts, read them and think "Would my mom or dad  

 be proud

 of this one?"  If not, don't send it.  I am in my early 70's and I  

 still use

 this approach.  It is a way I can vent, not send it, and not make  

 more of a

 fool of my self on the list.

 I don't mind you saying it was a good post, but I don't want to  

 have it used

 to bushwhack some one else.  If you want attack, attack ideas and  

 broaden

 the discussion.  Nothing said on the list is going to prevent you  

 from doing

 what you want with your plane or how you fly it.  Give others the same

 freedom.

 I have thought about it, and I believe my mom and dad would be  

 proud and so

 I am going to send this to the list.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 do not archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:22 am Post subject: Wingtips

To all you guys who are much better informed in maths and aerodynamics than 

I this may be of interest.



I have come across a fairly new search engine called Wolframalpha which 

answers question directly rather than ,like Google, offering you a list of 

other places to follow.



This engine seems to deal with advanced maths among other things and in the 

`tour video` it brushed through Reynolds Numbers and illustrates airflow.



It seems to me that if some of you smart guys can formulate the question 

properly we can get a `proper` answer to the effectiveness of reshaped wing 

tips, winglets etc.,



Its a fun site too. I discovered that I share a birthday with Caligula. Hows 

that for a conversation stopper?



Cheers



Pat

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Below is a link to a website that is primarily about drag reduction using wheel pants but there is also a section some ways down the page that is a study of different wing tip designs that some may find interesting.



http://corvairq.info/Wheel%20Pants.htm

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: Wingtips

Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the superiority of one 

wing tip over another that  three top designers designed three different 

planes, with different wing tips to do the same job.



Spitfire Elliptical

Hurricane.  Round

Me 109 Square



Maybe is isn`t that important after all.



Pat

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: Wingtips

At 12:10 PM 8/29/09 +0100, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the superiority of one 

wing tip over another that  three top designers designed three different 

planes, with different wing tips to do the same job.



Spitfire Elliptical

Hurricane.  Round

Me 109 Square



Maybe is isn`t that important after all.



Pat




	


It isn't if you have an excess of power and don't have to pay for the fuel.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Wingtips

Pat, On top of all that, the last models of the Spit had squared off tips.

Rick Girard

do not archive

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 At 12:10 PM 8/29/09 +0100, you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>

 >

 >Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the superiority of one

 >wing tip over another that  three top designers designed three different

 >planes, with different wing tips to do the same job.

 >

 >Spitfire Elliptical

 >Hurricane.  Round

 >Me 109 Square

 >

 >Maybe is isn`t that important after all.

 >

 >Pat

 >

It isn't if you have an excess of power and don't have to pay for the fuel.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

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russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: Wingtips

Wasn't the Spit wingtip changed from elliptical to squared-off? For  

more efficiency?

do not archive



On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:10 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the  

 superiority of one wing tip over another that  three top designers  

 designed three different planes, with different wing tips to do the  

 same job.



 Spitfire Elliptical

 Hurricane.  Round

 Me 109 Square



 Maybe is isn`t that important after all.



 Pat

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: Wingtips

Russ,

  They squared them off so they did not bump into the hanger door frame.

 

   

 

   

 

 --

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: Wingtips

It isn't if you have an excess of power and don't have to pay for the 

fuel.>>



Hi Jack,

thats part of it of course but surely each of the designers was striving for 

the highest efficiency he could get for other reasons.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: Wingtips

Wasn't the Spit wingtip changed from elliptical to squared-off? For  more 

efficiency?>>



Hi Russ,



 In the B of B all the Spits had eliptical wings. Later Spits did have a 

clipped wing. I think that was because dogfighting had moved to much higher 

altitudes.



I love the theory that the Me109 had squared wing tips because German hangar 

doors were narrower.



Cheers



Pat

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