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Window Write-Up

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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: Window Write-Up

As you may know, I attempted to install my left side door window last  

week with somewhat disastrous results.  As best I can tell, my shop  

was too hot (about 85 degrees) and the Weld-on 10 set up too quickly.   

The bond to the fiberglass was perfect, but I had voids between the  

window and the dried Weld-on 10 in over half of the bonding area.  I  

had also failed to remove the masking tape from the inside of the  

window soon enough and had a fair amount of masking tape trapped by  

the Weld-on bead.



My initial thought was to try to save the window by injecting epoxy  

into the gaps (as some have done with apparent success), but after  

discussions with Vans, the window manufacturer and tech support by the  

makers of Weld-on 10, I decided to route out the window and start  

over.  There are some things I learned from these discussions that are  

worth sharing.



Vans was not willing to say that the injected epoxy approach would  

work and referred me to the window manufacturer, Jeff from Airplane  

Plastics in Ohio.  Jeff spent a good deal of time with me on the  

phone. He initially thought the injected epoxy idea might work and  

suggested I use Scotch Weld 2216 to accomplish the task.  As we  

discussed the situation further, I was able to communicate that what  

we were really trying to do in this case was bond the window to the  

dried Weld-on 10... not the window to the fiberglass.  He thought that  

could still work... as long as I could scuff up the Weld-on 10!



So, I was back to square one.   We started to discuss alternatives to  

Weld-on 10 for window installation.  He confessed that it had been a  

long time since he had actually installed a window... then recollected  

that the windows would pop out during the structural roll over test on  

the RV-10 until Vans switched to  Weld-on 10 to bond them in.  With  

Weld-on 10, the window would break before the bond would.  As I  

understood the conversation, Weld-on 10 was an important component of  

the plane passing the test.  This made my decision to start over again  

certain.



With that, Jeff suggested I route it out with an Onsrud carbide double  

flute 1/2" x 1/2" bit (I wound up using a similar bit I had in my  

router and it worked well), I said good bye and ponied up the $150 to  

Vans for another window.



I also made a call to tech support at IPS, the makers of Weld-on 10,  

hoping to find another product that would stay open longer.  Here's  

what I learned:



Weld-on 10 stays open the longest of any product they have for this  

application

At 70 degrees, there should be 15-20 minutes of time to get the job  

done (I had about 5 minutes at 85 degrees)

Be certain you are using product less than one year from the  

manufacture date as the working time decreases with age

They do make a dispensing gun that mixes while dispensing for $300- 

$400.  Weld-on 10 is packed in to a cartridge for this purpose and  

called Weld-on 811.



I've also combed through the archives and had I done that sooner might  

have avoided some of these problems.  Both Lew Gallagher and John  

Gonzalez had very useful posts (hindsight is 20/20) in early January  

of this year.



I'm going to wait until the fires in our local mountains have stopped  

burning and I'm able to keep the temperature in the shop at or below  

70 degrees before I try again.  I'll get a second set of hands to  

spread the Weld-on 10 more quickly and be sure to pull up the masking  

tape once the window is down securely.  The gun seems a bit pricey and  

I imagine I can find a way to spread the Weld-on 10 quickly and  

accurately without too much effort or expense.



Jeff Carpenter

40304

one step forward... two steps back

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:15 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

I imagine I can find a way to spread the Weld-on 10 quickly and  accurately 

without too much effort or expense.



Jeff- with two people doing this you should be fine. I had my wife spread 

the weld-on on the window while I spread a small bead on the door. We had 

one person hold the window in place and used retainers drilled into the 

canopy to hold the windows flush. than started removing the tape on the 

inside first, finishing with having the exterior tape removed.

just make sure you remove the excess Weldon with a stick before removing any 

tape. It really can be done all within 20 minutes- at least in the late fall 

it can, when the temps are in the 70's.

Pascal



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Carpenter" <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>

Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:34 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Window Write-Up



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As you may know, I attempted to install my left side door window last 

 week with somewhat disastrous results.  As best I can tell, my shop  was 

 too hot (about 85 degrees) and the Weld-on 10 set up too quickly.   The 

 bond to the fiberglass was perfect, but I had voids between the  window 

 and the dried Weld-on 10 in over half of the bonding area.  I  had also 

 failed to remove the masking tape from the inside of the  window soon 

 enough and had a fair amount of masking tape trapped by  the Weld-on bead.



 My initial thought was to try to save the window by injecting epoxy  into 

 the gaps (as some have done with apparent success), but after  discussions 

 with Vans, the window manufacturer and tech support by the  makers of 

 Weld-on 10, I decided to route out the window and start  over.  There are 

 some things I learned from these discussions that are  worth sharing.



 Vans was not willing to say that the injected epoxy approach would  work 

 and referred me to the window manufacturer, Jeff from Airplane  Plastics 

 in Ohio.  Jeff spent a good deal of time with me on the  phone. He 

 initially thought the injected epoxy idea might work and  suggested I use 

 Scotch Weld 2216 to accomplish the task.  As we  discussed the situation 

 further, I was able to communicate that what  we were really trying to do 

 in this case was bond the window to the  dried Weld-on 10... not the 

 window to the fiberglass.  He thought that  could still work... as long as 

 I could scuff up the Weld-on 10!



 So, I was back to square one.   We started to discuss alternatives to 

 Weld-on 10 for window installation.  He confessed that it had been a  long 

 time since he had actually installed a window... then recollected  that 

 the windows would pop out during the structural roll over test on  the 

 RV-10 until Vans switched to  Weld-on 10 to bond them in.  With  Weld-on 

 10, the window would break before the bond would.  As I  understood the 

 conversation, Weld-on 10 was an important component of  the plane passing 

 the test.  This made my decision to start over again  certain.



 With that, Jeff suggested I route it out with an Onsrud carbide double 

 flute 1/2" x 1/2" bit (I wound up using a similar bit I had in my  router 

 and it worked well), I said good bye and ponied up the $150 to  Vans for 

 another window.



 I also made a call to tech support at IPS, the makers of Weld-on 10, 

 hoping to find another product that would stay open longer.  Here's  what 

 I learned:



 Weld-on 10 stays open the longest of any product they have for this 

 application

 At 70 degrees, there should be 15-20 minutes of time to get the job  done 

 (I had about 5 minutes at 85 degrees)

 Be certain you are using product less than one year from the  manufacture 

 date as the working time decreases with age

 They do make a dispensing gun that mixes while dispensing for $300- $400. 

 Weld-on 10 is packed in to a cartridge for this purpose and  called 

 Weld-on 811.



 I've also combed through the archives and had I done that sooner might 

 have avoided some of these problems.  Both Lew Gallagher and John 

 Gonzalez had very useful posts (hindsight is 20/20) in early January  of 

 this year.



 I'm going to wait until the fires in our local mountains have stopped 

 burning and I'm able to keep the temperature in the shop at or below  70 

 degrees before I try again.  I'll get a second set of hands to  spread the 

 Weld-on 10 more quickly and be sure to pull up the masking  tape once the 

 window is down securely.  The gun seems a bit pricey and  I imagine I can 

 find a way to spread the Weld-on 10 quickly and  accurately without too 

 much effort or expense.



 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

 one step forward... two steps back

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

Hi Jeff



Thanks for the detailed post - I find the posts about how builders solved

problems the most informative of all.



I still have windows to do and have been considering Silpruf as an

alternative to Weldon. Fortunately I don't have to make a decision until

spring when it will be cool.



Do you know if Weldon can be applied effectively at lower temperatures? And

if so how does this impact the cure time? Is too long a cure time a problem?



Do you have any pix of how you routed out the window? 



Cheers



Les

#40643 - living in a f/g world  



--

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

Jeff I used a urethane adhesive to install my windows. It had a 20 min

working time and was easy to clean up and it did not run like weld-on. I

also did a test against weld-on and this held better. I am not flying the

airplane yet but it was a much easier task then the weld-on. The other nice

thing about it was that you can clean the inside edges very good with a PPG

reducer DT870. It is for urethane paints and will not hurt the window in any

way but does clean the urethane very easily. This material is off white and

can be tinted if needed. You would need to use a urethane base tint. It is a

little more flexible than the Weld-on which

Should be an advantage for the different substrates that are being glued

together. Time will tell how it will hold up but so far it has worked out

great. My airplane is painted and a month or so from flying. I used this on

all windows. Give me a call if you would like to discuss further. As far as

I am concerned this is the best solutions for gluing the windows in. I know

one thing is that they will not come out. This urethane has a incredible

bond. We just used it on some samples for a project to butt glue 1/2"

acrylic to each other. We tried to break it and could not.



Geoff



Geoff Combs

President

Aerosport Modeling & Design

8090 Howe Industrial Parkway 

Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110

614-834-5227p

614-834-5230f

www.aerosportmodeling.com

--

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

Geoff any brand/type of urethan you've used?



br Werner



Geoff Combs wrote:

[quote] 



 Jeff I used a urethane adhesive to install my windows. It had a 20 min

 working time and was easy to clean up and it did not run like weld-on. I

 also did a test against weld-on and this held better. I am not flying the

 airplane yet but it was a much easier task then the weld-on. The other nice

 thing about it was that you can clean the inside edges very good with a PPG

 reducer DT870. It is for urethane paints and will not hurt the window in any

 way but does clean the urethane very easily. This material is off white and

 can be tinted if needed. You would need to use a urethane base tint. It is a

 little more flexible than the Weld-on which

 Should be an advantage for the different substrates that are being glued

 together. Time will tell how it will hold up but so far it has worked out

 great. My airplane is painted and a month or so from flying. I used this on

 all windows. Give me a call if you would like to discuss further. As far as

 I am concerned this is the best solutions for gluing the windows in. I know

 one thing is that they will not come out. This urethane has a incredible

 bond. We just used it on some samples for a project to butt glue 1/2"

 acrylic to each other. We tried to break it and could not.



 Geoff



 Geoff Combs

 President

 Aerosport Modeling & Design

 8090 Howe Industrial Parkway 

 Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110

 614-834-5227p

 614-834-5230f

 www.aerosportmodeling.com

 --

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

I used Lord 7542 urethane adhesive



Geoff



Sent from my iPhone Geoff

On Sep 3, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:



[quote] 



 Geoff any brand/type of urethan you've used?



 br Werner



 Geoff Combs wrote:

> 

> >

>

> Jeff I used a urethane adhesive to install my windows. It had a 20  

> min

> working time and was easy to clean up and it did not run like weld- 

> on. I

> also did a test against weld-on and this held better. I am not  

> flying the

> airplane yet but it was a much easier task then the weld-on. The  

> other nice

> thing about it was that you can clean the inside edges very good  

> with a PPG

> reducer DT870. It is for urethane paints and will not hurt the  

> window in any

> way but does clean the urethane very easily. This material is off  

> white and

> can be tinted if needed. You would need to use a urethane base  

> tint. It is a

> little more flexible than the Weld-on which

> Should be an advantage for the different substrates that are being  

> glued

> together. Time will tell how it will hold up but so far it has  

> worked out

> great. My airplane is painted and a month or so from flying. I used  

> this on

> all windows. Give me a call if you would like to discuss further.  

> As far as

> I am concerned this is the best solutions for gluing the windows  

> in. I know

> one thing is that they will not come out. This urethane has a  

> incredible

> bond. We just used it on some samples for a project to butt glue 1/2"

> acrylic to each other. We tried to break it and could not.

>

> Geoff

>

> Geoff Combs

> President

> Aerosport Modeling & Design

> 8090 Howe Industrial Parkway Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110

> 614-834-5227p

> 614-834-5230f

> www.aerosportmodeling.com

> --

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

Sorry guys the material I used was 7545 a/c. The 7542 is the same  

material but a little thinner and greenish tan in color. The 7545 has  

a higher viscosity and does not run. They have different cure times as  

well.

They have a 7545 a/e which is slower yet.



Geoff



Sent from my iPhone Geoff

On Sep 3, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Geoff <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com>  

wrote:



[quote] 



 I used Lord 7542 urethane adhesive



 Geoff



 Sent from my iPhone Geoff

 On Sep 3, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:



> 

>

> Geoff any brand/type of urethan you've used?

>

> br Werner

>

> Geoff Combs wrote:

>> 

>> >

>>

>> Jeff I used a urethane adhesive to install my windows. It had a 20  

>> min

>> working time and was easy to clean up and it did not run like weld- 

>> on. I

>> also did a test against weld-on and this held better. I am not  

>> flying the

>> airplane yet but it was a much easier task then the weld-on. The  

>> other nice

>> thing about it was that you can clean the inside edges very good  

>> with a PPG

>> reducer DT870. It is for urethane paints and will not hurt the  

>> window in any

>> way but does clean the urethane very easily. This material is off  

>> white and

>> can be tinted if needed. You would need to use a urethane base  

>> tint. It is a

>> little more flexible than the Weld-on which

>> Should be an advantage for the different substrates that are being  

>> glued

>> together. Time will tell how it will hold up but so far it has  

>> worked out

>> great. My airplane is painted and a month or so from flying. I  

>> used this on

>> all windows. Give me a call if you would like to discuss further.  

>> As far as

>> I am concerned this is the best solutions for gluing the windows  

>> in. I know

>> one thing is that they will not come out. This urethane has a  

>> incredible

>> bond. We just used it on some samples for a project to butt glue  

>> 1/2"

>> acrylic to each other. We tried to break it and could not.

>>

>> Geoff

>>

>> Geoff Combs

>> President

>> Aerosport Modeling & Design

>> 8090 Howe Industrial Parkway Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110

>> 614-834-5227p

>> 614-834-5230f

>> www.aerosportmodeling.com

>>

>>

>> --

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: Window Write-Up

Well evaluated and thought out. This will surely lead to a much better C engineered result the second time. 

  

 I guess this is exactly what the building process is all about C albiet very frustrating. If only everyone's mind would work this way C the cars and other products in this world would be all the much better.

  

 Good science

  

 Keep pluggin away.

  

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: jeff(at)westcottpress.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Window Write-Up

 Date: Wed C 2 Sep 2009 23:34:45 -0700

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>

 

 As you may know C I attempted to install my left side door window last 

 week with somewhat disastrous results. As best I can tell C my shop 

 was too hot (about 85 degrees) and the Weld-on 10 set up too quickly. 

 The bond to the fiberglass was perfect C but I had voids between the 

 window and the dried Weld-on 10 in over half of the bonding area. I 

 had also failed to remove the masking tape from the inside of the 

 window soon enough and had a fair amount of masking tape trapped by 

 the Weld-on bead.

 

 My initial thought was to try to save the window by injecting epoxy 

 into the gaps (as some have done with apparent success) C but after 

 discussions with Vans C the window manufacturer and tech support by the 

 makers of Weld-on 10 C I decided to route out the window and start 

 over. There are some things I learned from these discussions that are 

 worth sharing.

 

 Vans was not willing to say that the injected epoxy approach would 

 work and referred me to the window manufacturer C Jeff from Airplane 

 Plastics in Ohio. Jeff spent a good deal of time with me on the 

 phone. He initially thought the injected epoxy idea might work and 

 suggested I use Scotch Weld 2216 to accomplish the task. As we 

 discussed the situation further C I was able to communicate that what 

 we were really trying to do in this case was bond the window to the 

 dried Weld-on 10... not the window to the fiberglass. He thought that 

 could still work... as long as I could scuff up the Weld-on 10!

 

 So C I was back to square one. We started to discuss alternatives to 

 Weld-on 10 for window installation. He confessed that it had been a 

 long time since he had actually installed a window... then recollected 

 that the windows would pop out during the structural roll over test on 

 the RV-10 until Vans switched to Weld-on 10 to bond them in. With 

 Weld-on 10 C the window would break before the bond would. As I 

 understood the conversation C Weld-on 10 was an important component of 

 the plane passing the test. This made my decision to start over again 

 certain.

 

 With that C Jeff suggested I route it out with an Onsrud carbide double 

 flute 1/2" x 1/2" bit (I wound up using a similar bit I had in my 

 router and it worked well) C I said good bye and ponied up the $150 to 

 Vans for another window.

 

 I also made a call to tech support at IPS C the makers of Weld-on 10 C 

 hoping to find another product that would stay open longer. Here's 

 what I learned:

 

 Weld-on 10 stays open the longest of any product they have for this 

 application

 At 70 degrees C there should be 15-20 minutes of time to get the job 

 done (I had about 5 minutes at 85 degrees)

 Be certain you are using product less than one year from the 

 manufacture date as the working time decreases with age

 They do make a dispensing gun that mixes while dispensing for $300- 

 $400. Weld-on 10 is packed in to a cartridge for this purpose and 

 called Weld-on 811.

 

 I've also combed through the archives and had I done that sooner might 

 have avoided some of these problems. Both Lew Gallagher and John 

 Gonzalez had very useful posts (hindsight is 20/20) in early January 

 of this year.

 

 I'm going to wait until the fires in our local mountains have stopped 

 burning and I'm able to keep the temperature in the shop at or below 

 70 degrees before I try again. I'll get a second set of hands to 

 spread the Weld-on 10 more quickly and be sure to pull up the masking 

 tape once the window is down securely. The gun seems a bit pricey and 

 I imagine I can find a way to spread the Weld-on 10 quickly and 

 accurately without too much effort or expense.

 

 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

 one step forward... two steps back

 

 

 <======================

&gt================
	


[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Window Write-Up

A little trick passed on to me from Dave Head, who may have heard it from someone else, is to put the container of mixed weld-on in a tray of ice water. This will extend the working time a bit. (The stuff in the container cures faster than the stuff which has been spread on the windows, due to the build up of heat).

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: Window Write-Up

Is there any reason not to just use Scotch Weld 2216 instead of Weld-on 10?

I used this for the control surface tailing edges and like the product.



Carl Froehlich



--

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Window Write-Up

Carl,

I'm not versed on the Scotch product, but I can guarantee you that I will never use Weld On again. Nastiest product I have used in a long time.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: Window Write-Up

Any crazing?  Is one cartridge enough for one window?



Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA

Muskego, WI



---

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