Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Stick centering

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: Stick centering

Hey Guys,



Since I'm not a pilot, I'm asking this on behalf of my owner/pilot partner -- be gentle!



He says this is the first plane he has seen that doesn't have a mechanism for bringing the stick back to center.  I.e. hands off, the plane should level out if trimmed correctly.   Keep in mind that he has not yet gone for his cross training in an RV-10, so this is all speculation.  Maybe in flight, it does center?  



I've read here about when "dialed in" the -10 flies itself, but it think that was in reference to AP discussions.  In spite of my strong encouragement that he should install an AP (after reading here about the advantages), he insists it's all about actively flying for him, not riding.  



So I guess the direct question is:  Without an AP installed, have others addressed this with springs, or whatever, or is it really not an issue?



Thanks, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Stick centering

The AP adds some resistance to the system but doesn't hold the stick in position. When I remove my hand from the stick, if trimmed properly the aircraft continues to fly straight and level...I'm assuming the air pressures are keeping the control surfaces  in aerodynamic place I've never flown an aircraft with a spring return except the ones on my R/C transmitter Build it as designed it does work quite well



Rick Sked



Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: Stick centering

I don't thinks it's an issue.  Here's  the explanation that I have in my 

head  to understand what's happening-



The aircraft we fly, when in flight, are positively stable in pitch.  

That is, once trimmed and then disturbed hands off, the aircraft will 

return to the trimmed state after a few oscillations.  This is 

accomplished in a variety of ways  that may include springs and weights 

in the control system.  But it doesn't have anything to do with the 

stick returning to a center. 



The same aircraft when in flight are not positively stable in roll.  

They may remain level if not disturbed in absolutely still air (no such 

thing).  Hands off, at some point, they will fall off in one direction 

or another and enter a spiral.   But that doesn't have anything to do 

with the stick returning to center either.



Generally speaking, one of the neat things about experimental aircraft 

is that they can be less stable in certain ways than certified 

aircraft.  That often means less junk in the control system which means 

a more pleasant and responsive control experience.  But too little 

stability or too much responsiveness can mean trouble too.



This is going to be interesting because there's a lot stuff to 

understand about stability - dynamic, static, longitudinal, lateral, 

convergent, divergent, etc. I only understand most of it when I'm 

staring at a text book.



Bill

Lew Gallagher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Guys,



 Since I'm not a pilot, I'm asking this on behalf of my owner/pilot partner -- be gentle!



 He says this is the first plane he has seen that doesn't have a mechanism for bringing the stick back to center.  I.e. hands off, the plane should level out if trimmed correctly.   Keep in mind that he has not yet gone for his cross training in an RV-10, so this is all speculation.  Maybe in flight, it does center?  



 I've read here about when "dialed in" the -10 flies itself, but it think that was in reference to AP discussions.  In spite of my strong encouragement that he should install an AP (after reading here about the advantages), he insists it's all about actively flying for him, not riding.  



 So I guess the direct question is:  Without an AP installed, have others addressed this with springs, or whatever, or is it really not an issue?



 Thanks, - Lew



 --------

 non-pilot

 crazy about building

 NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

 Painting done!

 On with wiring and avionics.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 76452#276452

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Stick centering

Since I'm not flying mine ...... I don't think you'll need any 'spring

trim'.  You have elevator trim available, and rudder trim can be as

simple as a piece of wood taped to the rudder or aileron trailing edge.



  I'm going to have active rudder and aileron trim ..... a piece of hinge

riveted to the trailing edge and driven by a model airplane servo.



As to being 'dialed in' .... I think it's still referring to rigging 

... which means all the stuff out in the air is really pointing in the 

correct direction, and in relation to each other.  So many things affect 

flying 'trim' so it's a fairly long process to tweak the surfaces so 

everything is aerodynamically correct.



Linn



Lew Gallagher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lewgall(at)charter.net>

 

 Hey Guys,

 

 Since I'm not a pilot, I'm asking this on behalf of my owner/pilot

 partner -- be gentle!

 

 He says this is the first plane he has seen that doesn't have a

 mechanism for bringing the stick back to center.  I.e. hands off, the

 plane should level out if trimmed correctly.   Keep in mind that he

 has not yet gone for his cross training in an RV-10, so this is all

 speculation.  Maybe in flight, it does center?

 

 I've read here about when "dialed in" the -10 flies itself, but it

 think that was in reference to AP discussions.  In spite of my strong

 encouragement that he should install an AP (after reading here about

 the advantages), he insists it's all about actively flying for him,

 not riding.

 

 So I guess the direct question is:  Without an AP installed, have

 others addressed this with springs, or whatever, or is it really not

 an issue?

 

 Thanks, - Lew

 

 -------- non-pilot crazy about building NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 

 Painting done! On with wiring and avionics.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 76452#276452

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Stick centering

Hey Lew, Don here.....  I believe that actual "centering" would be of no hope for actually flying any aircraft on a distinct heading and altitude.  For every flight the wt & bal changes, and if that wasn't enough, the wt & bal changes during flight.  So say the stick returns to center,,,, the same center you'll have one day with a 250lb guy sitting next to you, and then the following day flying with yourself.  Or one day with no baggage and the next day with 100lbs.    Then what about fuel burn?  I suppose you could fly your heading based on fuel burn.... veering a little left, switch to the left tank for awhile.....

 I can't imagine anyone who was building a 10,,,,, for the reasons one would actually build a 10, and not install an AP.

 Although I was really leaning to rudder and aileron trim while building, now that I'm flying, I don't find much need for either one.  Plane flies almost perfect in the vast majority of conditions.... the rest of the time, it flies almost perfect!

 Ok, that's my 2cents

 Don McDonald

 New pilot, 90+ hours, and enjoying the %$&* out of it!



--- On Sun, 12/6/09, Lew Gallagher <lewgall(at)charter.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Lew Gallagher <lewgall(at)charter.net>

Subject: Stick centering

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 7:01 AM



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)>



Hey Guys,



Since I'm not a pilot, I'm asking this on behalf of my owner/pilot partner -- be gentle!



He says this is the first plane he has seen that doesn't have a mechanism for bringing the stick back to center.  I.e. hands off, the plane should level out if trimmed correctly.   Keep in mind that he has not yet gone for his cross training in an RV-10, so this is all speculation.  Maybe in flight, it does center?  



I've read here about when "dialed in" the -10 flies itself, but it think that was in reference to AP discussions.  In spite of my strong encouragement that he should install an AP (after reading here about the advantages), he insists it's all about actively flying for  him, not riding.  



So I guess the direct question is:  Without an AP installed, have others addressed this with springs, or whatever, or is it really not an issue?



Thanks, - Lew



--------

non-pilot

crazy about building

NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

Painting done!

On with wiring and avionics.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?pp; the Contribution link below to find out more "http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronicsp;                   -Matt DrNavigator?RV10-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV1bsp;            - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=====





	


         [quote][b]

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: Stick centering

Lew,

   I think the other messages may have answered your question, but the

simple answer is airloads return the controls to neutral.  I don't know what

your partner has been flying, but all the light general aviation airplanes

I've ever flown don't have a spring centering system (with the exception of

my Q-2 but it was a spring biased trim system so doesn't really count).  If

you go out to any light Cessna or Piper and move the ailerons they will stay

that way during preflight.  The elevator falls because of the weight.  The

rudder may center but primarily due to springs that keep the rudder pedals

forward.  Airborne it's a non-event and the stick will return to center

based on trim settings.



Don't give up on your pitch for the autopilot.  Lots of recent discussion

about it regarding IFR flying, but while I am definitely a stick and rudder

guy as much as possible, the autopilot has made longer trips very pleasant

and less taxing allowing me to arrive more refreshed.



Marcus

40286



Do not archive



--

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: Stick centering

Lew,

	I appreciate your partner wanting to actively fly the plane

however safely flying the plane is also something to think about. I

Cessna 152 class airplane may not need an AP but this serious cross

country machine like this RV-10 does. Someone will fly this plane on

regular cross countries and having tools like automatically holding

altitude and heading is both a comfort and safety issue. Don't want it,

then don't use it. Reducing pilot workload comes in many forms and not

having to hold a plane within is couple hundred feet and on course for 4

hours and then be fresh enough for a difficult landing conditions can be

considered a safety issue. Auto pilots are also great for sightseeing,

sapping a photo, reaching for the jug of water or the urine bottle.

Without an AP you are have a statistically higher chance of taking a

swig out of the urine bottle. How about resale? I don't think anyone

wants to buy an RV-10 w/o and AP installed. I can think of many more

important reasons to add the AP to your build. I can't think  of any to

not install one. They don't have to be $15K budget busters. My RV-6A had

a $1,700 AP driven by my Garmin 396 and it was the best thing that ever

happened to that plane. Don't ask me what the worst thing was... 



Robin 

--

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: Stick centering

I too would question "what is the experience level" of your pilot?  This is

what I would call a neutrally stable aircraft i.e. if you put it into a bank

it will stay there.  A 152 is a positively stable aircraft i.e. it will

return to level flight after a while.



Other homebuilt aircraft are even more unstable than the 10.  If your pilot

doesn't have experience in this type of flying I would advise some

transition training that specifically gets him to understand what type of

aircraft this is and how it flys.



I second the recommendation for an AP.  It will reward you with all kinds of

benefits he as of now hasn't completely though through.



Gary Specketer



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: Stick centering

Just to reiterate experience...I had about 130 hours all in a 172....and no real good stick time for two years before flying my -10 I can honestly say now I am proficient at flying the airplane...For me that meant almost 25 hours of dual...by my choice..The AP should almost be part of the MEL.  (some aircraft it is) if only for being a backup to, God forbid,  spatial disorientation...   

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: Stick centering

The only time I've heard of springs being used in these light planes is

to help provide gradient forces with stick movement.  Meaning that the

further you move the stick from center, the more pressure (feedback) it

applies against you.  So it would be 0 at neutral and get stronger as

you move to the outer limits.  The pressure of the springs should be

uniform in all directions.



Now the question is why would anyone do that?



The answer is to keep the pilot from putting too many G's on the

airframe.  Some aircraft designs are very light on the controls and

provide very little feedback (or non-uniform feedback) in the terms of

stick forces.  As a result it's very easy for a pilot to over control

the airplane and put too many G's on it without realizing what they're

really doing.  The springs are provided to insert a simple form of

artificial feedback directly at the stick.



There have been a handful of airplanes out there who've required

springs.  I would guess most are retrofit's following accidents of the

same type (I don't know), because I couldn't imagine designing a light

plane that needed the springs intentionally.



We're lucky to have a good airframe and control surface designer for the

RV-10.   



Phil





--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: Stick centering

Actually, springs have been used as a 'trim' function on a lot of 

homebuilts.  Varying the tension of the springs adjusts the 'center' 

position of the stick, and hence the 'trim'.  IMHO, it's crude, but 

effective.



Far more elegant would be proper rigging coupled with remotely operated 

trim servos to take care of CG shifts in flight.  Better would be the 

addition of an autopilot if only for temporary control of the airplane 

(or for helping you out of a nasty situation such as a controlled 180), 

and better yet .... both trim and autopilot.  The better the rigging, 

and smaller the trim movement, the more efficient and faster your 

airplane will go.

Linn



Perry, Phil wrote:

[quote] 

 

 The only time I've heard of springs being used in these light planes is

 to help provide gradient forces with stick movement.  Meaning that the

 further you move the stick from center, the more pressure (feedback) it

 applies against you.  So it would be 0 at neutral and get stronger as

 you move to the outer limits.  The pressure of the springs should be

 uniform in all directions.

 

 Now the question is why would anyone do that?

 

 The answer is to keep the pilot from putting too many G's on the

 airframe.  Some aircraft designs are very light on the controls and

 provide very little feedback (or non-uniform feedback) in the terms of

 stick forces.  As a result it's very easy for a pilot to over control

 the airplane and put too many G's on it without realizing what they're

 really doing.  The springs are provided to insert a simple form of

 artificial feedback directly at the stick.

 

 There have been a handful of airplanes out there who've required

 springs.  I would guess most are retrofit's following accidents of the

 same type (I don't know), because I couldn't imagine designing a light

 plane that needed the springs intentionally.

 

 We're lucky to have a good airframe and control surface designer for the

 RV-10.   

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 --

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Stick centering

Thanks for the replies.  



Phil, I think you nailed it closest, cuz when I passed on all the feedback to him, he responded that the cargo planes he flew in the AF and the Diamond he has been training in, have the artificial gradient resistance to help to not over steer.  I really think that once he gets his cross training in a -10, he will be more comfortable.



On the AP issue, I don't fly and even I can see what an asset it is (see my response to Rob's post!).  I'll keep pushing it!



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: Stick centering

FYI......move the RV-10 stick 3 to 4 inches left or right and hold it you will be approaching 90 degrees of bank real quick and your brain won't even KNOW there's a spring there.....you fly this plane with a few fingers...not a fist full. and unless he flew the C-17...OMG...over steer? Well maybe he flew C-47.s. WTFDIK!!!

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: Stick centering

The main reason for the AP is for cross country use, where holding a

relatively sensitive stick would get old in a hurry. If he only plans

breakfast and hamburger runs in local area, then AP is not cost

effective. While I flew a plane without one for long cross countries

for years, you don't realize how fatiguing it is until later. You just

have to figure how to share the $5000 cost that will persuade him.



On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Lew Gallagher <lewgall(at)charter.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks for the replies.



 Phil, I think you nailed it closest, cuz when I passed on all the feedback to him, he responded that the cargo planes he flew in the AF and the Diamond he has been training in, have the artificial gradient resistance to help to not over steer.  I really think that once he gets his cross training in a -10, he will be more comfortable.



 On the AP issue, I don't fly and even I can see what an asset it is (see my response to Rob's post!).  I'll keep pushing it!



 Later, - Lew



 --------

 non-pilot

 crazy about building

 NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

 Painting done!

 On with wiring and avionics.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 76635#276635

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: Stick centering

Agreed.  He'll never know it's missing because those forces are designed

into the airplane.



And I agree.  WTFD(R)K??? LOL!!



Phil



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum