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Washing Ethanol out of Gas
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Now if we can just get politicians on both sides of the border to see it

that way!  We might then come up with a good reliable fuel.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Hi All,



If you all are washing gas for the 912ULS 100 hp then you should stop and I wouldn't put another drop of washed fuel in my 912ULS. I just got with some people that work with this as a business and did some real testing at a lab. The washed gas looses octane and the 91 oct. went from 91 to 88.3 oct. It also took out some of the additives. That 88.3 Oct. is too low for the 912ULS 100 hp. You will eventually ruin your engine. For the guys with the 912UL 80 hp you could still use this fuel at 88 oct.

I just saw the lab results a few hours ago. These guys really did their homework.

If you want to use this technique there are devices on the market.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Noel- The Japanese used the same arrangement with charcoal.  My father saw it on Okinawa and in China while with the Marines in 1945.  He said they only went 10 or 15mph, but it was better than walking and carrying the load.

  

                                             Bill Sullivan

 [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi All,



If you all are washing gas for the 912ULS 100 hp then you should stop and I wouldn't put another drop of washed fuel in my 912ULS. I just got with some people that work with this as a business and did some real testing at a lab. The washed gas looses octane and the 91 oct. went from 91 to 88.3 oct. It also took out some of the additives. That 88.3 Oct. is too low for the 912ULS 100 hp. You will eventually ruin your engine. For the guys with the 912UL 80 hp you could still use this fuel at 88 oct.

I just saw the lab results a few hours ago. These guys really did their homework.

If you want to use this technique there are devices on the market. 	




Roger I just passed 1100 hours in Rotax 2strokes with Ethanol gas. 



is there a proble with ethanol gas ?   



The ones that whine about it -heck might not fly much ? 



Armchair captains



Check my videos --  Real time proof it works .



I am not a supporter of ethanol gas but it here and I ain't got no choice.  SO I MAKE IT WORK

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

thilo.kind(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

During the war Germany used coal to produce methane based fuels, since crude

oil was hard to come by. The process was not very efficient, but since all

other fuel sources were not longer accessible to them, they had to go that

road.



The wood driven cars and trucks were mostly civilian vehicles during and

shortly after the war. Wood was loaded into a vessel and ignited. A small

hole at the bottom of the vessel provided air, but not enough to burn all

the wood. Hence, a good portion of the wood degraded into gas, which was

then used to drive an internal combustion engine. Not very efficient - the

energy content of the wood was very low and the gas didn't burn very clean

inside the engine (which significantly reduced the life time of the engine).

Not really an option for airplanes....



Sorry to hear about the trouble with the gas / ethanol in the US. For once,

we have an advantage here in Europe: our Mogas contains 5 % Ethanol max....



Thilo



--

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  

Roger I just passed 1100 hours in Rotax 2strokes with Ethanol gas. 



is there a proble with ethanol gas ?   



The ones that whine about it -heck might not fly much ? 



Armchair captains



Check my videos --  Real time proof it works .



I am not a supporter of ethanol gas but it here and I ain't got no choice.  SO I MAKE IT WORK 	




Roger's talking about the 912ULS which has a higher octane requirement than the 2-strokes. The 2-strokes can pretty much run on anything as long there's 2 stroke oil in it 



But in the end, you're much better off just running the E10 premium than the witches brew you get when you wash the gas. After it's washed, you don't really know what you got running through your 20 grand engine. At least you know what the octane rating of the gas is if you leave it alone.



For the 2-strokes you may still be ok, but you're still doing a whole lot of work and messing around than you need to do. E10 has been approved for the 2-strokes too (except the 447 of course) so I'd just gas up and fly....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Lucien said it all.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

LS, I know the 912 s well.  Reg mogas no good -- Premium works fine. Most here have no ethanol in it yet in Ontario Canada. 



I know of many that use premium grade on 912 ul and 2 strokes because of what ever reason. - I never had troubles with 6 month old gas in 2 strokes but I do hear pinging once in a while if gas is old or new.

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Roger:



Interesting on this subject of gas.  How was the 88.3 Octane level determined?

Barry



On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:42 PM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>

  

 

 Roger Lee wrote:

 > Hi All,

 >

 > If you all are washing gas for the 912ULS 100 hp then you should stop and I wouldn't put another drop of washed fuel in my 912ULS. I just got with some people that work with this as a business and did some real testing at a lab. The washed gas looses octane and the 91 oct. went from 91 to 88.3 oct. It also took out some of the additives. That 88.3 Oct. is too low for the 912ULS 100 hp. You will eventually ruin your engine. For the guys with the 912UL 80 hp you could still use this fuel at 88 oct.

  > I just saw the lab results a few hours ago. These guys really did their homework.

 > If you want to use this technique there are devices on the market.

 

 

 

 

 Roger I just passed 1100 hours in Rotax 2strokes with Ethanol gas.

 

 is there a proble with ethanol gas ?

 

 The ones that whine about it -heck might not fly much ?

 

 Armchair captains

 

 Check my videos --  Real time proof it works .

 

 I am not a supporter of ethanol gas but it here and I ain't got no choice.  SO I MAKE IT WORK

 

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Awesome *New Forum *

 http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

 Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth

 http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316801#316801

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 ===========

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 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"



 

  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Hi Barry,



The fuel was tested at a lab before washing and the same fuel tested after washing. I don't know the exact method the lab used to define the octane rating. The first sample of the untreated fuel was right on and the washed fuel test results looked right in line with what you would expect.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Regarding 912 Rotax 4 - stroke, The 2 to 3 point octane loss seems to be

what multiple folks in the proprietary gasoline additive aftermarket

business have seen in their testing. I also heard that figure from one of

the major aftermarket additives companies two or three years ago while

talking with thier fuel additive engineers.



Amoco gas engineers working with the EAA on unleaded gas STCs for GA

engines were adamant that a little bit of lead from a small percentage of

100 LL (25%) mixed with unleaded auto fuel resulted in a very prominent

increase in octane and that additional increases in octane required

relatively dramatic increases in lead. In other words the increase in

octane with increase in lead content is not a straight line but an upswept

curve. 25 to 30 percent 100 LL seemed to provide enough lead to gain back

about 3 octane points according to what I remember and 50 % 100 LL seems

to be what others are hearing is required to regain octane lost thru

washing.



If Shell included some ashless dispersant qualities in thier new 4 -

stroke light sport aviation oil, plating out of lead may not be a big

issue if 25 hour oil changes are carried out.



I have to think that Shell at least tested some ashless dispersant

qualities for thier new 4 - stroke  Light Sport aviation oil, because

Shell knows the fleet is predominantly Rotax 912s, that 100 LL use will be

common in these engines, and Shell engineers certainly have lots of

expertise in ashless dispersant technology for aviation oils.



If anyone knows the lead suspension qualities of Shells 4- stroke light

sport oil, fill us in.



BJ

Kitfox IV, 912 N154K

Twin Comanche PA 39  N626NR



Roger:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Interesting on this subject of gas.  How was the 88.3 Octane level

 determined?



 Barry



 On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:42 PM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com> wrote:



> 

> Roger Lee wrote:

> > Hi All,

> >

> > If you all are washing gas for the 912ULS 100 hp then you should stop

> and

> I wouldn't put another drop of washed fuel in my 912ULS. I just got with

> some people that work with this as a business and did some real testing

> at a

> lab. The washed gas looses octane and the 91 oct. went from 91 to 88.3

> oct.

> It also took out some of the additives. That 88.3 Oct. is too low for

> the

> 912ULS 100 hp. You will eventually ruin your engine. For the guys with

> the

> 912UL 80 hp you could still use this fuel at 88 oct.

> > I just saw the lab results a few hours ago. These guys really did

> their

> homework.

> > If you want to use this technique there are devices on the market.

>

>

> Roger I just passed 1100 hours in Rotax 2strokes with Ethanol gas.

>

> is there a proble with ethanol gas ?

>

> The ones that whine about it -heck might not fly much ?

>

> Armchair captains

>

> Check my videos --  Real time proof it works .

>

> I am not a supporter of ethanol gas but it here and I ain't got no

> choice.

>  SO I MAKE IT WORK

>

> --------

> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

> http://www.cfisher.com/

> Awesome *New Forum *

> http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth

> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316801#316801

>

 --

 Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

They use a process called a flash test.  Basically they heat up a metal

plate to a specific temperature and then drop a single drop of fuel on it.

The temperature of the plate which causes the fuel to flash is what they are

looking for.  The higher the octane rating the higher the temperature

required to flash.  In the past volatility and high octane levels were

confused because older high octane gasoline was a lot more volatile than

lower octane gasoline.



BTW someone once told me that I could increase the octane of any fuel by

adding a bit of kerosene or Diesel fuel to it...  This obviously is not

true.  Diesel fuels are very low octane so they do not require a spark to

get them to flash inside the engine.  Conversely Ethanol while very low in

btu per unit volume a is actually a high octane fuel (RON116) This is why

when you wash the ethanol out of your gas you will see a slight decrease in

RON.  Using my grade two arithmatic I estimate the drop to be under three

points drop for removing 10% booze.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:26 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Noel,

Nice to see some detail.

Thanks for the information.

BJ



[quote] 

 <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



 They use a process called a flash test.  Basically they heat up a metal

 plate to a specific temperature and then drop a single drop of fuel on it.

 The temperature of the plate which causes the fuel to flash is what they

 are

 looking for.  The higher the octane rating the higher the temperature

 required to flash.  In the past volatility and high octane levels were

 confused because older high octane gasoline was a lot more volatile than

 lower octane gasoline.



 BTW someone once told me that I could increase the octane of any fuel by

 adding a bit of kerosene or Diesel fuel to it...  This obviously is not

 true.  Diesel fuels are very low octane so they do not require a spark to

 get them to flash inside the engine.  Conversely Ethanol while very low in

 btu per unit volume a is actually a high octane fuel (RON116) This is why

 when you wash the ethanol out of your gas you will see a slight decrease

 in

 RON.  Using my grade two arithmatic I estimate the drop to be under three

 points drop for removing 10% booze.



 Noel



 --

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Hello Roger:



Sorry for the long delay on getting back to you and the Gaggle.

I have spoken to a retired lab chemist for Exxon-Mobile and determining octane rating is not something any lab can perform.  Mainly because of the cost.  The way it is done is with a very specialized piece of equipment called a "Knock Engine".  

  I wanted to have some testing done and the answer was - You can't afford it.

The explanation on what a Knock Engine is and how it works was very interesting and took about a half hour with Q&A's.

  Simply: 

It is a Variable Compression Engine.

It is fuel injected.

And there are gages to read: Compression, Fuel Flow, Temps of all sorts and an audio system to detect Knock.

  The engine is started - Run up to temp.  And then the compression is increased until the Knock is detected.

There are all sorts of charts to compare fuels - ranges of operation - density altitude - and others.

 What Noel is talking about is Flash Point - Which is used to determining the Flammability of a substance for chemical classification for things such as MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) and HMIS (Hazardous Material Identification System).

 And it is done two ways:

Open and Closed...

Open is done with a OPEN metal petri dish and heated electrically so you can CONTROL the temperatures and without adding variables such as oxygen and an external combustion process.

 Closed is done the same way except with a close petri dish.

The closed method is used for know explosive items.  Gas being one of them.

Noel's idea of dropping gas on a hot metal plate has a huge variable as oxygen is being removed from the surrounding area.  Which would raise the flash point.  That is why the Closed method was developed.

 



I am still searching for a lab to perform a test that would hold up in court and not brake my bank.

Barry



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Hi Barry,

 

 The fuel was tested at a lab before washing and the same fuel tested after washing. I don't know the exact method the lab used to define the octane rating. The first sample of the untreated fuel was right on and the washed fuel test results looked right in line with what you would expect.

   

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317024#317024

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"



 

  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Unfortunately my friends lab was taken over and subsequently closed but I believe the Irving Oil co in New Brunswick still does octane testing.  You may also want to contact the Newfoundland Constabulary.  They had problems years ago with low octane fuel in their cars and I understand that they now do periodic octane testing of all high octane pumps in their jurisdictions.  This far north you may find a lab that is more reasonable than where you live.  Sending a vial of gas across an international border could be fun though!  

   

Either way you can check with universities ( Chemistry profs usually know where to find things in industry) or local police or sheriffs departments.  They may have come into problems with their high compression  police cars.  You could also check with the NHRA.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: November 1, 2010 4:59 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

   

Hello Roger:    

   

    

Sorry for the long delay on getting back to you and the Gaggle.  

    

I have spoken to a retired lab chemist for Exxon-Mobile and determining octane rating is not something any lab can perform.  Mainly because of the cost.  The way it is done is with a very specialized piece of equipment called a "Knock Engine".    

    

I wanted to have some testing done and the answer was - You can't afford it.  

    

The explanation on what a Knock Engine is and how it works was very interesting and took about a half hour with Q&A's.  

    

Simply:   

    

It is a Variable Compression Engine.  

    

It is fuel injected.  

    

And there are gages to read: Compression, Fuel Flow, Temps of all sorts and an audio system to detect Knock.  

    

The engine is started - Run up to temp.  And then the compression is increased until the Knock is detected.  

    

There are all sorts of charts to compare fuels - ranges of operation - density altitude - and others.  

    

What Noel is talking about is Flash Point - Which is used to determining the Flammability of a substance for chemical classification for things such as MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) and HMIS (Hazardous Material Identification System).  

    

And it is done two ways:  

    

Open and Closed...  

    

Open is done with a OPEN metal petri dish and heated electrically so you can CONTROL the temperatures and without adding variables such as oxygen and an external combustion process.  

    

Closed is done the same way except with a close petri dish.  

    

The closed method is used for know explosive items.  Gas being one of them.  

    

Noel's idea of dropping gas on a hot metal plate has a huge variable as oxygen is being removed from the surrounding area.  Which would raise the flash point.  That is why the Closed method was developed.  

    

   

    

I am still searching for a lab to perform a test that would hold up in court and not brake my bank.  

    

   

    

Barry  

    

     

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:  

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Hi Barry,

 

 The fuel was tested at a lab before washing and the same fuel tested after washing. I don't know the exact method the lab used to define the octane rating. The first sample of the untreated fuel was right on and the washed fuel test results looked right in line with what you would expect.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317024#317024

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

   

  



  

 --     

Barry  

    

"Chop'd Liver"  

  

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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