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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Hey Richard



 I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look at 

a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live 

with a bit more power if you bought the big engine.



Sorry I just couldn't resist.



Do not archive



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Not to worry, I have enjoyed your posts for years and know that you are 

not a slinger of mud. 



Actually got very close to going to a VW with Valley reduction drive on 

it for my MKIII, I was really impressed watching Valley's demonstrator 

airplane several years ago at Oshkosh, may go that way when the 582 

comes up for overhaul. Most of the time I have enough power, since I 

usually fly solo. But carrying a passenger out of my short strip with 

big power lines nearby - more power is a good thing.

2 considerations:

What do you figure your total powerplant weight is?

How quiet is it? My airstrip is right beside the subdivision, so my 582 

has both after muffler and intake silencers on it, it is vital that I be 

a quiet neighbor. Is the VW powersystem really quiet? Or just sort of 

"Street legal but loud?" Because if it is not quiet, then I would have 

to make it quiet, and that would probably be more weight.



Thanks,

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Richard



  I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look at 

 a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live 

 with a bit more power if you bought the big engine.



 Sorry I just couldn't resist.



 Do not archive



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Richard



I really don't have a weight but I figure it is about 20lbs. more than a 

Rotax 912. My VW uses the Valley redrive and isn't as smooth as I would 

like. There are two gear redrives now available that will work on a VW and 

hopefully they have some form of harmonic dampening. My redrive doesn't 

other than the belt.



The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane. Inside the cockpit it is 

loud. I have a four into one exhaust system and it isn't too bad due to the 

low RPMs. It doesn't scream like the high RPM VW dune buggy engines. Those 

that fly their VWs with four short pipes make some real noise but my engine 

noise is hard to tell from the prop noise. I had a motor cycle muffler on 

the engine at one point. It was a baffled glass pack that blew the packing 

after a few hours so it didn't contribute much to noise reduction. More 

importantly I found it cut the power significantly so I don't use it any 

more.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

<< Only a total idiot would not realize how far superior a 4 stroke is to a

2 stroke. Michael A. Bigelow >>



Geez, Mike - that's kind of a broad, inflammatory statement against many

folks on this List.  Do you ever wonder why your posts are so often a source

of resentment amongst List members?  There are more gracious ways to espouse

your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots."

Dennis Kirby



Do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

 	  Quote: 	
		   of resentment amongst List members?  There are more gracious ways 

 to espouse

 your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots."

 Dennis Kirby

 
	


Yep!  I guess "2 stroke" pilots encompasses about 99% of the Kolb 

List.  I still fly them on occassion, when the opportunity arises.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Hey, I run a 4 stroke and am only slightly impaired.........

-senility setting in  v e r y  s l o w l y

-BB do not archive

On 5, May 2006, at 11:41 AM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>



 << Only a total idiot would not realize how far superior a 4 stroke is 

 to a

 2 stroke. Michael A. Bigelow >>



 Geez, Mike - that's kind of a broad, inflammatory statement against 

 many

 folks on this List.  Do you ever wonder why your posts are so often a 

 source

 of resentment amongst List members?  There are more gracious ways to 

 espouse

 your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots."

 Dennis Kirby



 Do not archive

ElleryWeld(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: Rotax Relapse

I also have over 330 hours on a 447 rotax 2 stroke in a firestar without a 

glitch just my opinion but if you know enough about what you are running for an 

engine and know how to keep it up to snuff  then you will be happy with it for 

a long time other than the loud noise these make I am very pleased with the 

preformance of mine



on the other hand if you dont know what you are doing, then keep your paws 

out of it and take it to someone who knows what it needs to get the longer life 

out of it,  and a properly adjusted prop is alot of the adjustment , I think 



only worth what you paid for it 



Ellery in a loud Firestar that has never missed a beat  for 336 hrs and still 

going strong 



do not archive

beauford(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

What you say makes sense to me, Ellery...Thanks for

the perspective...



That's why it was taken to Lockwood when the

defective choke piston in the Bing caused all the carbon

problems and I couldn't figure it out....



Yesterday I unloaded the prop slightly... from 6450

WOT to 6600... and went ahead and replaced the fan belt..

it was marginally loose and would not tighten enough to get

it quite to specs. Replaced it to rule it out as a factor... And also

because George Alexander claimed he could hear a high-pitched

squeal as I flew past on downwind with the old belt...   I assured

George that the squeal was likely coming from the pilot, not the

fan belt...   Anyway, he claims he cannot hear the squeal any longer

after the belt was replaced... (the old one wasn't really that loose).

Also ran premium gas with PZ AC at 50 to 1 yesterday.



Result was some improvement, but it is still not where it

needs to be:  Front cylinder CHT remains 30 - 35 hotter than the rear

and still wants to run around 390 at 6000 cruise.  This makes me

a tad uncomfortable, but it beats the 400 plus it had been showing and

I

have about resigned myself to just watching it run to see what happens

next. Believe it is stemming from a slightly tight (green dot) piston

in the

front jug and it is just going to have to wear a little of that

tightness out of itself

before things settle down.  Will go ahead and run 50 to 1 oil until

the

thing loosens up or blows up.



Looking at the temp difference between the cylinders, got to

speculating about the Rotax rationale for publishing a maximum

acceptable CHT delta...  is it:

a. Because a large temp difference is an INDICATOR of an abnormal

condition that requires immediate attention...?  Or is it...

b. Because a large temp difference sets up asymetric stresses in

components which can CAUSE failures...?

Or is it a combination of both....?



Obviously, I'm thinking about the implications of continuing to run

this thing with the existing CHT differential...  the EGT's are

running identically... no difference between cylinders.



For anyone who is interested, it looks to me

like the Gates belt cross-reference for the 447 is

the Gates #1240.   Adjusted up OK... will look

at it again after a couple of hours to see how it's doing.



Still got the Timex

Beauford

FF#076

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

| Obviously, I'm thinking about the implications of continuing to run

| this thing with the existing CHT differential...  the EGT's are

| running identically... no difference between cylinders.

/

 | Beauford



What kind of engine instruments are you using?  Steam gauges or the 

digital thing, ahhhhhhhhhhh....I remembered the name, EIS?  Are they 

temperature compensated? or do you have to take care of that operation 

in your head?



Been a long time since I worried about temp compesation, but the base 

line is 68 or 70F.  Based on OAT, one must add or subtract the 

difference to get "actual temp".



If unloading the prop brought the CHT down and the EGT is in the 

green, seems to me you are headed in the right direction.



Nothing associated with our sport is "precision", from airplanes, to 

engines, to instruments, and pilots.  If the 447 is making power, 

running good, instruments are in the green, I'd fly and enjoy it.  If 

it breaks, you know what to do.  



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

beauford(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 What kind of engine instruments are you using?  Steam gauges or the

 digital thing, ahhhhhhhhhhh....I remembered the name, EIS?  Are they

 temperature compensated? or do you have to take care of that

operation
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   in your head?

 >

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

On May 6, 2006, at 10:43 AM, Beauford wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Still got the Timex

 Beauford


	


But George is still  worthy for listening to that thing squeal.  



Hi George!






do not archive

beauford(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Ooooops... excuse the "blank" I just fired...

I am running the EIS... and it is supposedly temp corrected...

Beauford

---

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Relapse

Beauford,



I've followed your 447 adventures with great interest.  As I understand it, the engine ran normally after the Lockwood Aviation overhaul.  You mention running with Amsoil.



A number of years ago, I used Amsoil at ratios varying from 100:1 to 50:1 in a Koenig 3 cylinder two stroke.  The amsoil left a a black gunky mess in the ring area.  I discontinued using it.



The rings in Rotax engines are of a design that cannot tolerate a bunch of junk in the grooves.  I'd guess that when you pull the pistons and look at the rings, you'll find the Amsoil residue.  When you clean things up and reassemble, try using California Power Systems AV2 two stroke oil at 50:1.  It's formulated for Rotax engines.  Another good choice is Pennsoil Two Stroke oil for aircooled engines.



Let us know how it goes.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Eugene and other interested listers....

While I would be proud to wear the Timex that works as well as Beauford's

R447, I would hate to come by it in the way he proposed.  Maybe he will give

it up as broke... don't know how he can hear it ticking when he can't hear

that squeal.

Anyway, there is a brief record of his excursions yesterday in his endeavor

to deal with the problem of high CHTs.

For those who are interested, you can view this record at:



http://home.comcast.net/~kolbplanes/BeaufordCHT



Fun, Safe Flying!



George Alexander

http://gtalexander.home.att.net



PS: Eugene-best to all the 'Z' Men



DO NOT ARCHIVE

--

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: Rotax Relapse

In a message dated 5/6/2006 9:39:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

gtalexander(at)att.net writes:



there is  a brief record of his excursions yesterday in his endeavor

to deal with the  problem of high CHTs.

For those who are interested, you can view this  record  at:



http://home.comcast.net/~kolbplanes/BeaufordCHT

George,

 

That was a great record you put together.  Neato!  



Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Do you have EGT's gauges, if so what are they doing?

Just for grins, have you checked the fan belt is ok and have you have 

been into the carb recently, i.e. the main jet needle.  Has it been 

reassembled correctly, its easy to get the needle clip on the wrong 

side of the white spring cup.  It will run but not properly.

jerb



At 08:05 AM 5/2/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Kolbers and Kolbettes:



Once again the mighty 447 asserts its total dominance over

a thoroughly beaten, sniveling and craven Beauford....



Last 5 hours -- Head temps are too high... they both climb steadily at =

full power, reaching

400 plus in about 20 seconds... and the fan-end cylinder remains hot, =

stabilizing

about 390 when one throttles back to normal (5800) cruise. Rear cylinder =

comes

down to about 360.



Data:

-- Engine had complete top end rebuild at Lockwood 16 hours ago...new =

pistons

and rings. Has consistently run hotter since rebuild, but not this hot =

until

last five hours.

-- Swapped plug thermocouples...verified front is hot cylinder and temp =

reads accurately

-- Same jetting as always... it previously ran at 340 CHT on these same =

jets

and with needle in this same (second) notch

-- No change in prop loading... turns 6050 static, 6450 wot in flight

-- Temps remain together up to 4400 rpm...then front takes off as =

throttle

is pushed up further...eventually gets to 40 degree difference

-- Both EGT's remain normal (1020)  at WOT... 1090 at cruise.

-- Plugs are clean and pretty...good color,slightly on light side... no =

trace

of excess carbon

-- Running Amsoil Saber 100 to one, but I'm mixing it at 70 to one

-- Ran a test tank of Pennzoil AC 50 to 1, no change in problem

-- All new gaskets throughout top of engine... heads and both manifolds

are torqued and re-torqued. No evidence of leakage at head or exhaust =

gaskets.

--Have not yet pulled exhaust to verify rings are free..that is next =

step, followed

by compression check.



I'm thinking air leak.   Anyone have any other "hot" ideas?

Also, is there any reliable way to leak-check the case and crank

seals without tearing down the engine...? 



Beat-up Beauford

FF#076

Brandon, FL

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Relapse

[quote="George Alexander"]Eugene and other interested listers....



to deal with the problem of high CHTs.

For those who are interested, you can view this record at:



http://home.comcast.net/~kolbplanes/BeaufordCHT



Fun, Safe Flying!



George Alexander

DO NOT ARCHIVE



Well, I know what the problem is. I am so surprised that all you expert engine and Kolbers didn't pick it up real quick. One trip to view his photo's gave me the answer..."CHEAP CIGARS"!  Yep, that's it, cheap cigars. Kolbs deserve and rightly expect quality in fuel, pilot, Oil, and flying fields. Why would they or should they expect "CHEAP CIGARS"? 



And most times we oblige them. But a cheap cigar? Unacceptable! Beauford, You change your cigars to something of quality and that thing will run like it was designed to do. And you can take that to the bank!  Now as for “adjustable wrenches ..........”



You just need to know where to look!

Cuban smoking Ralph of Ohio!

Bill Vincent

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 84

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Rotax Relapse

Beauford

No wonder your engine is over heating, that big 'ole BRS is blocking the =

air.

Bill Vincent

FS II

Do Not Archive

_________________
Bill Vincent
Firestar II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: Rotax Relapse

On May 7, 2006, at 10:11 PM, Bill Vincent wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Beauford

 No wonder your engine is over heating, that big 'ole BRS is  

 blocking the =

 air.

 Bill Vincent

 FS II

 Do Not Archive


	




Bill did you notice how much up elevator is required for straight and  

level ?



I strongly suggest that he hauling a bid LOAD of youknowhat in that  

photo.

Plane in that trick pict was actually parked on the grass.

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Relapse

Here is the pict again.

BT_Flying.jpg

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